Oranje Thread

rai Mihawk wrote:

the constant whining from the dutchies on this board

you never get that from me.

we're all alone (and ricardo)

Fey wrote:d'gorgeous

You know we Dutchies always have to complain about something. Stelletje azijnzeikers zijn we

Look if Feyenoord plays like this(which is almost every time) I won't be giving critics. But for Oranje....That should be entertainment that's what made us a big country. Same as Ajax, would you accept PSV-result style football from them?

And MVB said at his beginning as coach, that one of his goals would be the dominating, attacking football

i almost forgot.



bonne nuit to you and rai i have to pick up a friend from her hockey training.

d gorgeous one haz spoken wrote:

rai Mihawk wrote:

the constant whining from the dutchies on this board

you never get that from me.

we're all alone (and ricardo) :(

:)

I can take and understand constructive criticism .. but sheer pessimism and slamming players and staff .. no, OK if the coach is out of line he should not be protected.

d gorgeous one haz spoken wrote:

rai Mihawk wrote:

the constant whining from the dutchies on this board

you never get that from me.

we're all alone (and ricardo)

Now are you being negative You could say half of the Dutchies support MVB the other half doesn't. But you lot do agree that we played bad today??So that we can agree at least on something

Fey wrote:

d gorgeous one haz spoken wrote:

rai Mihawk wrote:

the constant whining from the dutchies on this board

you never get that from me.

we're all alone (and ricardo)

Now are you being negative You could say half of the Dutchies support MVB the other half doesn't. But you lot do agree that we played bad today??So that we can agree at least on something

what half??

yes 2nd half was not good .. 3pts is important -- hope San Marco and the side changes things for the England game, treat it as a competitive game.

I have to agree with our pessimist brothers... The second half was very very bad!!!! Although Albania is not as bad as many people think.

I still think the first half, especially the first 25 minutes, was quite good! High tempo, good ball possesion and many chances...what do we want more????

How did RVP do?

The guy should be on a huge morale high atm after THAT goal.

Tweedledum wrote:How did RVP do?

The guy should be on a huge morale high atm after THAT goal.

Hes been the in-form Dutch player in the past two games ..

rai Mihawk wrote:

Tweedledum wrote:How did RVP do?

The guy should be on a huge morale high atm after THAT goal.

Hes been the in-form Dutch player in the past two games ..

Make that three and a half games, Rai.

d gorgeous one haz spoken wrote:

ricardojol wrote:Only 2 losses in 29 games is not bad! 1 point away against Bulgaria isn't also that bad!

Those two losses were also against our "Angstgaegners"...

If we lost against Germany or england it would have been bad but there is hardly a Dutch coach that ever won from Italy and Portugal

i'm saying!

they want co adriaanse as coach, sooner or later he's not getting the results they want (i.e. win every game 5 - 0) and they bring his ajax past into the discussion. "he's amsterdam through and through he's as bad as van basten".

Deluded and paranoid.

Its you that can't accept people with relations to Ajax being critiscised on their efforts, regardless of whether they're Ajax or not. Club has nothing to do with it, otherwise people would have collectively hated the past golden generation (De Boers etc) as well.

Its when people adress the problems within the squad, some kneejerk and say: "they're Ajax so you hate them". That's right, there simply isn't another reason. Ajax people are infallible and the rest of us are just jealous

This could be a good season for RVP

Tweedledum wrote:This could be a good season for RVP

Hope so.

It already kind of is...

Distinguished Dutchman wrote:It already kind of is...

At the moment he is playing well, lets hope he maintains it, he has the ability no doubt.

What did you think of last night's game rai. Good, bad or acceptable?

Distinguished Dutchman wrote:What did you think of last night's game rai. Good, bad or acceptable?

1st half - it was 'pleasant' to watch and thought everything was OK
2nd half - problems.

Overall i say the game was ok, but things have to change.

The overall performance should not be acceptable, only van Persie as a outfield player deserves some recognition .. we have to remember apart from the defence and Robben + van Persie .. players were covering for injured teammates or 'removed' personals.

Distinguished Dutchman wrote:

d gorgeous one haz spoken wrote:

ricardojol wrote:Only 2 losses in 29 games is not bad! 1 point away against Bulgaria isn't also that bad!

Those two losses were also against our "Angstgaegners"...

If we lost against Germany or england it would have been bad but there is hardly a Dutch coach that ever won from Italy and Portugal

i'm saying!

they want co adriaanse as coach, sooner or later he's not getting the results they want (i.e. win every game 5 - 0) and they bring his ajax past into the discussion. "he's amsterdam through and through he's as bad as van basten".

Deluded and paranoid.

Its you that can't accept people with relations to Ajax being critiscised on their efforts, regardless of whether they're Ajax or not. Club has nothing to do with it, otherwise people would have collectively hated the past golden generation (De Boers etc) as well.

Its when people adress the problems within the squad, some kneejerk and say: "they're Ajax so you hate them". That's right, there simply isn't another reason. Ajax people are infallible and the rest of us are just jealous

Most of the times I disagree with dGohS but on this he is right! If Co were the coach he would have been the guy to be pick on! And people would find excuses why he is such a bad coach! unless he wins the World Cup or European Cup!

There was always critique on Leo Beenhakker, Rinus Michels, Dick Advocaat, Louis van Gaal when they were the head coach of Oranje. this is not different from Van Basten at the moment!

rai Mihawk wrote:

Distinguished Dutchman wrote:What did you think of last night's game rai. Good, bad or acceptable?

1st half - it was 'pleasant' to watch and thought everything was OK
2nd half - problems.

Overall i say the game was ok, but things have to change.

The overall performance should not be acceptable, only van Persie as a outfield player deserves some recognition .. we have to remember apart from the defence and Robben + van Persie .. players were covering for injured teammates or 'removed' personals.

Still... it wasn't good. Only the first 30 minutes were acceptable (I didn't even think it was that good - simply not enough creativity). The longer it went the more pathethic it got.

OK means it was acceptable. The game simply wasn't, despite people deputising.

How did we go from the 2nd ranked team to the shambles we are now?

Holland is top of the table DD

Distinguished Dutchman wrote:
How did we go from the 2nd ranked team to the shambles we are now?

Why hired a manager who has only experience managing the Ajax youth team....and it shows....

@ Distinguished Dutchman

How did we go from the 2nd ranked team to the shambles we are now?

You don't need rankings to prove what a good side is and what a bad side is .. only long term performance under a set squad.

Plus FIFA are a lot of shambles themselves.

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Plus, if people believe yesterday was the first XI of Oranje ... problems, big problems

only a fit van der Vaart and Huntelaar (no RVN so its KJH) or Kuijt

a on form Schaars .. ok hes young, but options?

To return.

The FIFA ranking set up was changed after the WC. That's the reason we fell back a few spots! 6's isn't that bad and is more reliable for the Dutch team at the moment!

ricardojol wrote:
Most of the times I disagree with dGohS but on this he is right! If Co were the coach he would have been the guy to be pick on! And people would find excuses why he is such a bad coach! unless he wins the World Cup or European Cup!

There was always critique on Leo Beenhakker, Rinus Michels, Dick Advocaat, Louis van Gaal when they were the head coach of Oranje. this is not different from Van Basten at the moment!

I'll put it very simple: even if Rinus Michels was perfroming/taking decisions like Macro is doing now, Rinus would have gotten critique - rightfully. So would Adriaanse, and so does Van Basten.
It isn't a matter of the public figure as the coach, but the results and gameplay (and everything else around it) he presents us.

To say that criticising Adriaanse would be stupid is bollocks. It is indirectly implying that when you choose/get a manager he's exempt from criticism, and criticising him would be some sort of hypocritical thing.
In that statement you can see that emphasis is put on the figure as coach, not the coach and the staff itself. He's defending the figure as coach because San Marco is an Ajax legend.
His argument is that Leo, Van Gaal were critiscised, and so would Driaanse because they were Ajax. Van Gaal was criticised because he couldn't get the golden generation in their collective peak to WC in the first place (not because he was Ajax), Advocaat because they barely qualified and played shit throughout, and that substitution, Beenhakker was unfairly critiscised because it was Van Basten that made trouble (and everyone criticsed the WC90 results) etc.

The arguments in favour are at best poor, because they all defend the figure of the coach, not the coach on the merit etc. Its sometimes tricky to go against arguments in favour, if you don't deconstruct the figure of the coach first. Its no small coincidince that the majority of people backing San Marco are Ajax.

You always have a bunch of people criticising, but to use that as an excuse in this case with this coach only shows the level myopia on the part of the people in favour.

Rai is Ajax, and even he knows what level of players Oranje warrants, and the level of our not-so-current-under this-manager situation.
People would have more confidence in San Marco if he didn't always try his hardest to f*ck things up. Its just that most people have figured thta out even if they aren't always able to formulate why. Like last night before the game, absolutely cringing stuff, damn yokels...

ricardojol wrote:Holland is top of the table DD

So what ?!

I used to love watching us play, even if we didn't get results.

Now we get results (to some degree) but I just couldn't care less about the team : it's hideous and boring. Especially knowing that it could easily be so much better.

This is the first time *ever* in my life that I don't consider Oranje to be *my* team. The team that is playing now is a travesty and I want nothing to do with it.

Rinus Michels was always attacked because he only selected AJAX players!!!!!!!!

This discussion was in the 70's as well as in the 80's....

And this discussion will always go on..! Because “provincials” and Rotterdammers are suffering from an inferiority complex....!

ricardojol wrote:Holland is top of the table DD

Eenoog is koning der blinden

We might be top, and we'll still qualify of course, but it means nothing when you look at our team. Have we even played convincing stuff as a team that didn't depend on individual quality (mostly from RVP).
Have we even played something resembling our strongest team? Everytime you look at the sqaud you only shake your head and think by yourself "this seriously cannot be our strongest squad".
Even the team selection (23 people) is shite.

I know some will jump and say have faith in Van Basten, but he got my full backing during the WC06 qualifyers and during the WC. Have we got anything in return? Yes, our worst tournament display, and our worst football in over 35 years. And not only no improvements afterwards, but a painfull proces of disintegration of the squad and everything it stands for (quality, good football, outplaying oppponents, etc).

Being at the top is a moot point, its being at the top and being the best is what we aim for. Us celbrating we are top is like scotland celbrating them winning France - for them it doesn't mean anything if they can't qualify for the EC. For us it means fuck all if we're going to capitulate and emberass ourselves badly next time we meet a though opponent. Being top would be OK if there was a sign (ANY SIGN) that things would improve - at least they did with Advocaat. At least he didn't select a second rate team.

If being at the top is all you aim for in this group, you better hope for a Germany-like run through WC02 if we ever want to go somewhere in a tournament under Van Basten's regime. FUCKING FACT.

Like things are going (and have gone) we'll reach the tournament, play mediocre at best, purposely choose a team we normally don't do well against , get to the second round, and crash and burn.
If we get to the final under San Marco the way he's been running things, it would be in some undeserved Domenech-like fluke. Because of individual quality, so far precisely what has got us to the top of the group so far.

ricardojol wrote:Rinus Michels was always attacked because he only selected AJAX players!!!!!!!!

This discussion was in the 70's as well as in the 80's....

And this discussion will always go on..! Because “provincials” and Rotterdammers are suffering from an inferiority complex....!

Ooh Err.
I'm assuming provencials would be Axe and me, and Rotterdammers are Fey & Sparta.
That's low Ricky dear, and bollocks. The inferiourity complex is yours to cherish. You just said as much that its you that can't take criticism of holy Ajax players. Especially if they're undeservedly in the squad.

And people still wonder where that randstad arrogance comes from - especially Ajax arrogance. While it has nothing to do with it, you're already playing the "inferiority card". Shame on you. And most pathethic.

ricardojol wrote:The FIFA ranking set up was changed after the WC. That's the reason we fell back a few spots! 6's isn't that bad and is more reliable for the Dutch team at the moment!

I think its were we stand generally, 6th is alright and still on the underdog side.

You are maybe insulted but it is a fact... in the 70's and 80's it was EXACTLY the same! some things will never change

BTW Den Haag are also suffering from an inferior complex...

rai Mihawk wrote:@ Distinguished Dutchman

How did we go from the 2nd ranked team to the shambles we are now?

You don't need rankings to prove what a good side is and what a bad side is .. only long term performance under a set squad.

Plus FIFA are a lot of shambles themselves.

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Plus, if people believe yesterday was the first XI of Oranje ... problems, big problems

only a fit van der Vaart and Huntelaar (no RVN so its KJH) or Kuijt

a on form Schaars .. ok hes young, but options?

To return.

I know that of the rankings, but it still the best measure there is. I don't need a ranknig to know that we're better than Denmark for example.

As for yesterday's XI; the entire 23 men squad selection is made by the manager. If the reserves aren't good enough, its (also) his responsibility. Serves him right for taking people like Jaliens and Heitinga on vacation to Bulgaria.