Under 21 World XI

Tweedle wrote:He's not judging him on football manager abilties though - these abilites are modelling the real world anyhow so its a pointless comment.

somebody else's opinion its subjective which is why we have differing opinions

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:

Tweedle wrote:He's not judging him on football manager abilties though - these abilites are modelling the real world anyhow so its a pointless comment.

somebody else's opinion its subjective which is why we have differing opinions

I just said its a pointless comment, so why bring it up again.

What I've provided after is cold, hard facts. Concentrate on those rather than pulling up the 'Pro Evo' arguement which is quite frankly going nowhere. I don't even know what stats they've given him so I'm not going to argue that point out with you.

Last season was his highest scoring season of his career. Argue that out

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:

and tweeds on your stats you could look at them slightly differently, ie he has had less effect on the team

depends how you look at the stats tweeds, as i said here earlier

That's just the league stats. What of the FA cup and the CL?

And the point you make about him having less effect on the team, may well be true. Ronaldo was their best player last season. In fact, he was probably the best player in the world over the course of the whole season. Rooney didn't live up to that. If he had, he'd have been the best player in the world, which kind of works against you arguement.

Thats league goals only, Frank and he missed more league games last season than the one before.

He scored more CL goals and FA cup goals. Thats already been mentioned twice now.

Tweedle wrote:That's just the league stats. What of the FA cup and the CL?

And the point you make about him having less effect on the team, may well be true. Ronaldo was their best player last season. In fact, he was probably the best player in the world over the course of the whole season. Rooney didn't live up to that. If he had, he'd have been the best player in the world, which kind of works against you arguement.

Last 3 months of the season, Rooney > Ronaldo.

Parks lives wrote:

Tweedle wrote:That's just the league stats. What of the FA cup and the CL?

And the point you make about him having less effect on the team, may well be true. Ronaldo was their best player last season. In fact, he was probably the best player in the world over the course of the whole season. Rooney didn't live up to that. If he had, he'd have been the best player in the world, which kind of works against you arguement.

Last 3 months of the season, Rooney > Ronaldo.

Last two I'd give you. I think Ronaldo was still the slightly more effective in March, or they were at least on level terms then. Rooney was the better player in April and May.

close your eyes to it, people with no bias are tending to see the argument that he is stalling in his progress and may well not become as good as people thought when he first burst onto the scene, but then you'll never have anything said against man utd so its a pointless discussion

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:close your eyes to it, people with no bias are tending to see the argument that he is stalling in his progress and may well not become as good as people thought when he first burst onto the scene, but then you'll never have anything said against man utd so its a pointless discussion

Frank you've not come up with any evidence to say why he's regressing and we've come up with evidence that he's changing as a player, not as explosive maybe but much more effective. Yet you are claiming us of bias and it a pointless discussion.

Fucking ridiculous.

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:close your eyes to it, people with no bias are tending to see the argument that he is stalling in his progress and may well not become as good as people thought when he first burst onto the scene, but then you'll never have anything said against man utd so its a pointless discussion

Well even if he doesn't improve any more (personally I think he will, specifically the things I've identified above) then he is still a top class player, probably in the top 20 footballers on the planet.

To argue that Aguero should be ahead of him in an under 21 team is quite frankly laughable.

Tweedle wrote:To argue that Aguero should be ahead of him in an under 21 team is quite frankly laughable.

bet you 50 quid within 12 months Aguero will be ahead of him in the eyes of the most knowledgeable observors of the game. Now we've got rid of that piece if sh¡t who hated the kid he is flourishing playing along side an unslefish forward, have you seen his goals over the last few weeks, not sure rooney could have pulled some of them off tbh

So are you even going to answer valid points Frank?

That he's not actually regressing but changing as a player, from an inconsistent but sometimes explosive player to a very consistent striker who scores and assists alot more over a season.

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:

Rez wrote:
I think Rooneys game is already complete, if you were to look at him from a pro evo point of view, he is good at everything already and excellent at a few things. All he lacks is experience, consistency and matuarity, which will come with age. So I think abilty wise you have maybe seen the best of Rooney, but in the future you will see it more consistantly as he scores 25+ goals a season.

this is the exact prob with this board too many judge players by football maanger, pro evo etc. this is the real world we are talking about ffs

Frank, I was using pro evo as an example, in that they measure numerically every single (physical) ability of a football player. In real life I would say that Rooney overall has a more complete game than any other young player around;

Rooney is very good at (short and long) passing, very good at (short and long distance) shooting, has good vision, good technique and excellent team skills. He is strong, quick, both footed and is fairly good at dribbling with the ball.

He lacks consistancy, positioning, maturity and experience.

Every year he has scored more goals, which suggests that his positioning and consistancy has increased.

Last season he scored 4 CL goals in the K.O stages which suggests he is more experienced in performing on the big stage.

He has recieved less bookings and red cards every season which suggests he is more experienced.

Overall Rooney is a better player than he was a few seasons ago, he doesnt score as many spectacular goals, but he is certainly more effective. In the same way Ronaldo is less flamboyant than he was when he arrived, but is now more effective.

And I'm sure there are plenty of goals that Rooney has pulled off that Aguero couldn't.

I'm sure there have been some goals that Riise has scored that Aguero couldn't pull off.

ANOTHER pointless comment frank!

Rooney is probably the most important and best player within the England squad. He hasn't produced the goods for a couple of years now. Its worth noting though that Aguero doesn't even make the Argentina first team. He'll also never be judged at the same level as Rooney until he starts playing in the CL.

4 goals in the quarter/semi finals of last seasons CL shows the class that Rooney has

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:

Tweedle wrote:To argue that Aguero should be ahead of him in an under 21 team is quite frankly laughable.

bet you 50 quid within 12 months Aguero will be ahead of him in the eyes of the most knowledgeable observors of the game. Now we've got rid of that piece if sh¡t who hated the kid he is flourishing playing along side an unslefish forward, have you seen his goals over the last few weeks, not sure rooney could have pulled some of them off tbh

Aguero is a very good player, but he has done nothing to suggest that he is better than Rooney. Rooney has done and won more than any other player his age. The 'most knowledgeable observers of the game' on this board recognised this and thus included him in their teams. It will take more than a few good games for people to class him in the same bracket as Rooney.

Tweedle wrote:Rooney is probably the most important and best player within the England squad. He hasn't produced the goods for a couple of years now. Its worth noting though that Aguero doesn't even make the Argentina first team. He'll also never be judged at the same level as Rooney until he starts playing in the CL.

says a lot as to why england have been so poor for some time, their most important player has hardly scored for a good few years. Aguero will start to get a lot more playing time now he is playing alongside another striker who is working with him rather than against him he was the u20 world cup top scorer and player fo the tournament has 5 goals in 6 in la liga already this season, trust me having seen us in all but one of those matches and seen rooney consistantly over the last few years he will bet better than rooney, rooney is NOT a bad player just not as good as the english ike to believe nad his progress has stalled, like they said on sunday supplement yesterday if there is no huge improvement for rooney this season effectively we'll have already seen the best of him, and i for one was expecting more when he burst onto the scene, still think he isn't being played in his best position for man utd, he is often essentially and out and out striker, but i don't believe this si getting the best from him, although you all seem to be happy with his contribution imho despite what i've said i think even with him hving stalled they could be getting more from him. but rooney unfortunately is foreproof in england. also worth noting on motd they discussed ashton playing alongside owen, not one of the three stooges actually said but you can't drop rooney now that would NOT have happened last season, he will hopefully start having his perfrmances questioned a lot more both by fergie, mcclaren and the public which will only be of benefit to him, rather than thinking he can do no wrong.

- Youngest player to debut in Argentine league (15 years old)
- Golden Boot/Ball at U-20 World Cup.

So again you won't answer any points Frank.

parky do you have a link to the stats so i can have a look, not that i think this is anywhere near the only measure. its difficult to provide "facts" on a subjective opinion, its just seeing him with my own eyes, not sure i've said regressing in terms of getting worse either, just not sure he's getting a lot better. and he has imho lost that explosion effect which was i think a major part of his game, i think he has been more affected by these metatarsal injuries than you'd care to admit

2004/2005 - 17 goals
2005/2006 - 21 goals
2006/2007 - 24 goals

He's assists stats have gone up even higher year by year as well.

I've said he's not as explosive, however I'm just as happy with him being effective and winning us games on a more regular basis.

The-Frank-Tavern wrote: like they said on sunday supplement yesterday if there is no huge improvement for rooney this season effectively we'll have already seen the best of him

I disagree.

He's 21 years old. To stall this season would still make him a top class player.

He's made incremental improvements to his game year on year since the age of 16. Last season he struggle to improve upon the previous, however, as parky has stated, he finished the season very strongly, bagging four KO CL goals. I also think that his poor early season form is partly attributable to being forced to play through injury at the world cup.

Now onto your point, he' is just 21, to stall this season wouldn't for me be a huge set back - footballers best years are usually from about the age of 24-28 - so he still has TWO more seasons after this one for me, for him to iron out the areas of his game in which he is presently lacking and become the player he can become and achieve his potential. So including this season, he has THREE seasons to make improvements.

parky is there no website to look at more detailled stats, eg goals at home and those away from home, for example. i think its a little difficult to draw any conclusions from goals per season alone, eg no. of games played, minutes on pitch, how it compares to the total no of goals the team scored. as i showed earlier in the league alone last season its easy to show that he had less effect on the team overall than the year before ie his % goals in comparison to the team was down.

Stat's don't tell the whole story either. As aforementioned (in this topic or another) Ronaldinho has his best ever return last season in terms of goals, but only a madman would say he's had his best ever season at Barcelona; in fact it's the complete reverse.

I think Rooney is a fantastic player, but I think he's being 'worked out'. He's never done anything notable in the CL, and his performances for England have been tepid at best. For someone that many said should be competing for WPOTY - he simply isn't performing to that level. Where is the Rooney of Euro 2004? I don't think he's anywhere near the complete player yet either. His first touch still let's him down all too frequently, and he's often sloppy in possession. Technique can be fallible, but also sublime. These were never traits of his game anyway, and aren't overly cruical to his style of play, but I don't see a Rooney that runs at players the same way he did when he first burst onto the scene.

On Aguero. He's actually been called up for their WC qualifiers, and has been capped already. If he isn't a regular already, he's not too far off. And I can't think of many better 19 year olds there. I said at the start of this season he would eclipse Tevez before too soon, most laughed. Certainly thus far he hasn't proved me wrong, and he will only improve. And no I don't think he is better than Rooney or Tevez yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if he overtakes both.

Calidad wrote:
I think Rooney is a fantastic player, but I think he's being 'worked out'. He's never done anything notable in the CL, and his performances from England have been tepid at best.

You say that, just after he had his best season in the CL though?

He was very good vs Roma and scored 2, excellent against Milan in the first leg and one of our only performers in the return leg.

He's not the fantasy player he was in 2004, I accept that. However it's not just stats he is winning us games, important one's as well.

Calidad wrote:
I think Rooney is a fantastic player, but I think he's being 'worked out'. He's never done anything notable in the CL, and his performances from England have been tepid at best.

Really?

For someone that many said should be competing for WPOTY - he simply isn't performing to that level. Where is the Rooney of Euro 2004? I don't think he's anywhere near the complete player yet either. His first touch still let's him down all too frequently, and he's often sloppy in possession. Technique can be fallible, but also sublime.These were traits of his game anyway, and aren't overly cruical to his game. I don't see a Rooney that runs at players the same way he did when he first burst onto the scene.

Firstly, this is the consistency arguement. He'll become more consistent with age. Secondly, he doesn't do what he used to, because often what he used to do wasn't particularly effective. It was spectacular to watch and maybe one in every ten attempts he'd pull it off, but football is all about maknig the right choice - Rooney back when he was 18 didn't provide many assists, now he's one of the league's top assisters.

Tweedle wrote:He'll become more consistent with age.

not neccesarily, there a lot of players much older than him who are equally inconsistant, eg Joe Cole

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:

Tweedle wrote:He'll become more consistent with age.

not neccesarily, there a lot of players much older than him who are equally inconsistant, eg Joe Cole

Haha. Big mistake bringing up Joe Cole frank. His consistency has improved no end compared to the player he was three years ago

thats why mourinho hasn't been playing him, he is still inconsistant, just poss players better more foten yes its got better but he still has some very good days and some very very poor games. improvement doesn't mean good, just better

Well I don't think his performances in the CL have ever justified his obvious ability. He was decent against Roma (better in the away leg) but far from spectacular. Milan was a so-so performance IMO.

Whilst I've always thought Rooney was overhyped (as most of our players are) I always thought he was the one that merited it most, and in some aspects he has justied it, but in others has fallen far short. I think it will be a big year for him - far from a make or break - because he already has made it, but I think many were/are expecting more of him, and so they should. WPOTY's should be doing something special on a consistent basis. Rooney simply isn't doing that.

Calidad wrote:Milan was a so-so performance IMO.

To score 2 against Milan, is a so-so performance.

How can he win with those standards?