Real Madrid Vs. Liverpool Discussion Thread

Torrente wrote:

Tweedle wrote:

Torrente wrote:

Tweedle wrote:I think its fair to say that the belief that defences in Serie A are seen as better than EPL defences can be put to rest

I'd even go as far as sayng that the current EPL top 4 defences are better than the defences in the peak of the Serie A years.

Big difference there. Most Premiership defenses consist of orangutans who don't know the meaning of low passes. They get dribbled very easily and have no technique whatsoever.

Funny how all the top four struggle to score against them then

But the current crop of EPL top 4 teams don't have a great attack, that's the big problem. ManU attacks decently, but they're hardly the 90s attacking team we all loved to watch. Chelsea can only attack well when teams open up, Adebayor's low form has meant that Arsenal has struggled to score this season, and no point of even mentioning Liverpool...

But of course, a lot of the time it's inevitable for teams to struggle when the opposition has 9 men in front of the box, which is basically the norm for most EPL teams when playing away. If you turn your entire team into a human wall in front of the penalty area, you're bound to at least defend somewhat decently.

Exactly but I have more or less given up trying to get entertained by watchng CL football. The only teams as I see who try to entertain are Barcelona,Villarreal,Atletico,Porto,Arsenal.
Villarreal are prett much doomed as much as I hate to say because they play like a south american team of 20 years ago. I would love for them to have succes with an attacking front of Ibagaza,Carzola,Nihat,Rossi but football simply doesn't allow it these days. Of those teams Barcelona has the best chance because they play at a very high level but even then with Messi,Eto,Iniesta,Alves they will prob struggle when they meet teams that park the bus.

english teams don't have that great of a defense, what they do have is great organization, having two lines of 4 doesn't mean your defenders are great it means they arent exposed.

Let them try and play it the barca/villarreal why with the fullbacks up the field and only 1/2 Dmeds covering them and they will get eaten alive, they have learnt this over the years and have adapated their tactics to ensure this doesn't happen and are reaping the rewards.

But the defenders in an of them self aren't any better than those in serie A/la liga, just ask henry who said he finds it easier to get in behind defenses in england and torres who said all they do it over commit and if you time it right you will have acres of space behind them.

Rosicky wrote:no surprise to see all the non english people complaining about our domination of the CL.

doubt we'd be hearing the same if it was la liga or serie a.

The Italians probably wouldn't complain because they don't really care about attacking football, but the Spanish are different. Our teams get booed sometimes even when they win if they played badly or defensively. I also remember English people complaining a lot when Italian teams were getting far in the CL playing catenaccio. Now that the English teams are doing it, you should expect some criticism as well.

But it's not like anyone is saying that there is anything illegitimate about winning like this. If Arsenal had won the CL a few years back when playing mind-numbing catenaccio, it would have counted the same as any time Madrid won it playing champaign football of course.

But you should at least acknowledge that the CL has become dominated by defensive teams, and that fans of attacking football do not like this. I had no problems when ManU won the CL in '99, they did it playing some amazing stuff. So it's not an English thing for me.

Super Madrid wrote:

Torrente wrote:@Jaime

The point I'm making is that Ramos had Guti dropping behind the midfield line to bring the ball up, which made no sense whatsoever. With a doble pivote behind him, this was the one game where Guti should have stuck to the final third, looking for space to put throughballs to. If Guti had done it only once or twice, I would have thought maybe it wasn't Juande's fault. But Guti did that the entire half, so it was clear that Juande instructed him to drop deep to bring the ball out, even though getting the ball into Liverpool's half was not a problem for us at any stage during the game. It was after we passed their half that we ran into the great wall of China.

But of course, it's not Juande's fault that we don't have a creative CM, which is absolutely crucial for this type of game. This is why I've been calling for us to splash the cash for Fabregas for quite some time now, because we desperately need a player like him. At least in their doble pivote Liverpool had Alonso, who may not be the most creative player but at least has excellent long range passes and can play the ball very quickly. Gago was given that function yesterday, and he failed miserably yet again.

I agree with that but I have no idea if Guti actually does anything a coach tells him or somply what he wants to do. Im beginning to question whether Gago has what it takes because he hasn't been a creative outlet in midfield as we hoped, a la Redondo. At the moment I would even give a chance to Parejo because I can't be bothered playing a double pivot and getting nowhere. Then I would rather go all out and rely on a single Dm and the rest can attack and hope the defence can handle it.

This is what I was going to say. I mean Guti seems to just do whatever the f*ck he wants these days. I don't suppose Juande asks him to play the entire half walking either. Guti right now shouldn't be used. I suppose you could blame Juande for putting him when he hasn't done sh!t the whole season but I think he had to at least gamble and hope that Guti for once might do something. He's the only one who had the ability to unlock Liverpools defence. It's just a shame he can't be arsed to do anything but comb his hair anymore.

And on Gago, he is still very young to boss the midfield like Redondo. At Gago's age Redondo was still playing in Argentina. But also, it's not like Redondo was usually that creative in the final third of the pitch. Of course we'll always have the glorious run in Old Trafford but he almost never made the through pass to split a defence or anything like that. Gago plays the same style as Redondo. He's just not as mature yet.

Messiah wrote:Let them try and play it the barca/villarreal why with the fullbacks up the field and only 1/2 Dmeds covering them and they will get eaten alive, they have learnt this over the years and have adapated their tactics to ensure this doesn't happen and are reaping the rewards.

Did you watch any of Chelsea-Juventus by any chance?

Jaime wrote:

Super Madrid wrote:

Torrente wrote:@Jaime

The point I'm making is that Ramos had Guti dropping behind the midfield line to bring the ball up, which made no sense whatsoever. With a doble pivote behind him, this was the one game where Guti should have stuck to the final third, looking for space to put throughballs to. If Guti had done it only once or twice, I would have thought maybe it wasn't Juande's fault. But Guti did that the entire half, so it was clear that Juande instructed him to drop deep to bring the ball out, even though getting the ball into Liverpool's half was not a problem for us at any stage during the game. It was after we passed their half that we ran into the great wall of China.

But of course, it's not Juande's fault that we don't have a creative CM, which is absolutely crucial for this type of game. This is why I've been calling for us to splash the cash for Fabregas for quite some time now, because we desperately need a player like him. At least in their doble pivote Liverpool had Alonso, who may not be the most creative player but at least has excellent long range passes and can play the ball very quickly. Gago was given that function yesterday, and he failed miserably yet again.

I agree with that but I have no idea if Guti actually does anything a coach tells him or somply what he wants to do. Im beginning to question whether Gago has what it takes because he hasn't been a creative outlet in midfield as we hoped, a la Redondo. At the moment I would even give a chance to Parejo because I can't be bothered playing a double pivot and getting nowhere. Then I would rather go all out and rely on a single Dm and the rest can attack and hope the defence can handle it.

This is what I was going to say. I mean Guti seems to just do whatever the f*ck he wants these days. I don't suppose Juande asks him to play the entire half walking either. Guti right now shouldn't be used. I suppose you could blame Juande for putting him when he hasn't done sh!t the whole season but I think he had to at least gamble and hope that Guti for once might do something. He's the only one who had the ability to unlock Liverpools defence. It's just a shame he can't be arsed to do anything but comb his hair anymore.

And on Gago, he is still very young to boss the midfield like Redondo. At Gago's age Redondo was still playing in Argentina. But also, it's not like Redondo was usually that creative in the final third of the pitch. Of course we'll always have the glorious run in Old Trafford but he almost never made the through pass to split a defence or anything like that. Gago plays the same style as Redondo. He's just not as mature yet.

I think VDV has the same ability to unlock defences as Guti does so I would have tried VDV instead because while VDV has been as useless as Guti this season he at least works and runs around while Guti doesn't give a shit.

Yeah I have made the same point about Gago as you said. I wonder how different we might have played had DLR been ready. At the moment Lass-Gago works well but it isn't creative enough at the highest level. Also think Gago has said he prefers being allowed to have the midfield for him self.

Rosicky wrote:no surprise to see all the non english people complaining about our domination of the CL.

doubt we'd be hearing the same if it was la liga or serie a.

It's not a xenophobic thing, it's always a shallow argument to run to in this case.

The point is, despite all them money, only Arsenal can produce attractive football consistently. The others don't look to entertain, they look to only win, which isn't a bad thing, but compared to the All-conquering Milan/Madrid/Barca sides of the past, and it doesn't look so pretty.

The Man Utd team in 1999 will be remembered more fondly than the 2008 squad for this reason. More drama, more gung-ho. You score 2, we'll score 3.

Right now the Away-goals rule, instead of encouraging more attacking football, has made home teams more cautious & defensive.

Super Madrid wrote:I think VDV has the same ability to unlock defences as Guti does so I would have tried VDV instead because while VDV has been as useless as Guti this season he at least works and runs around while Guti doesn't give a shit.

Yeah I have made the same point about Gago as you said. I wonder how different we might have played had DLR been ready. At the moment Lass-Gago works well but it isn't creative enough at the highest level. Also think Gago has said he prefers being allowed to have the midfield for him self.

You have seen VDV this season? He's just as lazy as Guti. He doesn't run anywhere except to McDonald's! VDV, the same as Sneijder, are effective when they get into the penalty box. Deeper in midfield they really don't offer anything. If VDV were to play effectively, he would have to play for Raul.

The one thing that De la Red could have offered was a long range shot. I think the only one who tried a shot from distance yesterday was Marcelo.

The HuddFather wrote:

Rosicky wrote:no surprise to see all the non english people complaining about our domination of the CL.

doubt we'd be hearing the same if it was la liga or serie a.

It's not a xenophobic thing, it's always a shallow argument to run to in this case.

The point is, despite all them money, only Arsenal can produce attractive football consistently. The others don't look to entertain, they look to only win, which isn't a bad thing, but compared to the All-conquering Milan/Madrid/Barca sides of the past, and it doesn't look so pretty.

The Man Utd team in 1999 will be remembered more fondly than the 2008 squad for this reason. More drama, more gung-ho. You score 2, we'll score 3.

Right now the Away-goals rule, instead of encouraging more attacking football, has made home teams more cautious & defensive.

Spot on and I have been wondering the same thing about the away goal rule but in the end I don't think it would change alot. Because Liverpool would prob still have played the same style away from home but it would mean that teams could afford to attack more.

Jaime
VDV does work more then Guti, allthough that doesn't say alot. I didn't mean that VDV should play deep but more that I think VDV could have done a better job then Guti if he stayed in the attacking zone more.

I always thought it would be interesting to see league points dished out based on goal difference. Ie a team wins 4-0, a team gets four points.

Tweedle wrote:I always thought it would be interesting to see league points dished out based on goal difference. Ie a team wins 4-0, a team gets four points.

I think that is messing too much with the rules. Football works fine the current rules but something small like away goals might help a bit instead of having cautious home and away teams.

I like messing with the rules. Rules are there to be messed with.

If rules didn't change, you wouldn't be getting paid for working

I'm absolutely fuming at that worthless piece of shit Heinze!!! Talk about giving away a retarded free kick, giving us the humiliation of losing by a goal from a third rate player like Benayoon.

Liverpool didn't come to play football they came to stifle which is what was to be expected because Benitez has always tried to play this sort of football. It is boring and would never survive in Bernabeu

Overall, we didn't deserve to lose, but Ramos's substitution and change of tactics lost us the game.

If you turn your entire team into a human wall in front of the penalty area, you're bound to at least defend somewhat decently.

Exactly but I have more or less given up trying to get entertained by watchng CL football.

Boy, some folks woke up to a paella pot full of piss... So, you acknowledge that it's because of Liverpool's performance that you failed to score at home. Maybe you could have had the free kick disallowed, like they did with the closing corner of the 1st half? Or should teams let you put 3 or 4 balls in the back of the net just to get things moving in the right direction?

Tweedle wrote:I always thought it would be interesting to see league points dished out based on goal difference. Ie a team wins 4-0, a team gets four points.

It won't matter, all 4 English sides when up 2-3 goals can pile on the goal scoring if they desired so all that's doing is inflating the league table for the odd already decent match.

To get to that point though, they have to break down a 10 man defence of the opposing team who aren't affected by your suggestion. They still don't think they are going to win, or at least deserve to win from a purists perspective, and so will continue to stick 10 men behind the ball in hope of nicking a couple of points, so nothing changes.

jmf wrote:

I'm absolutely fuming at that worthless piece of shit Heinze!!! Talk about giving away a retarded free kick, giving us the humiliation of losing by a goal from a third rate player like Benayoon.

Liverpool didn't come to play football they came to stifle which is what was to be expected because Benitez has always tried to play this sort of football. It is boring and would never survive in Bernabeu

Overall, we didn't deserve to lose, but Ramos's substitution and change of tactics lost us the game.

If you turn your entire team into a human wall in front of the penalty area, you're bound to at least defend somewhat decently.

Exactly but I have more or less given up trying to get entertained by watchng CL football.

Boy, some folks woke up to a paella pot full of piss... So, you acknowledge that it's because of Liverpool's performance that you failed to score at home. Maybe you could have had the free kick disallowed, like they did with the closing corner of the 1st half? Or should teams let you put 3 or 4 balls in the back of the net just to get things moving in the right direction?

Nobody has suggested anything remotely close to that. Why don't you f*ck off and enjoy your win.

Jaime wrote:
Nobody has suggested anything remotely close to that. Why don't you f*ck off and enjoy your win.

What does it look like I'm doing?

S4P wrote:

Messiah wrote:Let them try and play it the barca/villarreal why with the fullbacks up the field and only 1/2 Dmeds covering them and they will get eaten alive, they have learnt this over the years and have adapated their tactics to ensure this doesn't happen and are reaping the rewards.

Did you watch any of Chelsea-Juventus by any chance?

yes, it was a good game.

But even then neither team was really looking to good for it.

Juve were cautious in the 1nd half, try not to concede rather than looking to score,and chelsea in the 2nd not wanting to give up the away goal.

COTR wrote:

Unflinching Frenchman wrote:

Chap wrote:Robinho would have been a good player for a match like this. Real were never going to break the Alonso/Mascherano combination, so inspiration had to come from out wide or from a top playmaker in top form. That meant Robben was the main man and he just never passed, never even wanted to.

Got the feeling that Higuain could have been a big asset if there was someone for him to link with. Without the connection up front they could only try to compete through piling on pressure - and weren't going to beat Liverpool at that game. So I can see why Guti came on. It's just that he just wasn't good enough to take on that midfield wall.

Riera couldn't threaten Ramos, but he showed good awareness and he balanced the formation. Liverpool deserve went out there without a functional striker (Babel is magnificently hopeless) and did it right.

Yes.

Viva Ronaldo

We actually have Man U to thank for this win

And dont you forget it....!!!

Super Madrid wrote:Pretty much mentioned my feelings on this game in the Real thread but will add that Mølby deserves to get killed for the comments he made during the game:

"Torres is the best striker in the world" "Liverpool is the best team in England" "Liverpool are unstoppable" etc.

Perez will have to get galaticos in the team because the truth is at the moment athletic players/team win games and not talent. Even then it will great talent to beat athletic players/teams. Robben showed today why I have gotten on his back so much. He is sooooo predictable it is untrue. Guti barely seemed like he could be bothered but he simply isn't good anymore.

oh and Heinze
What I don't get is that he constantly makes the utterly stupid mistakes like ripping into players and high elbows when it isn't needed yet it is Marcelo/ Drenthe who get the stadium on his back. What does Heinze have to do before people realize he is one of the worst defenders to grace the game?

NOT when he was with us!

Clearly RM have the ability to ruin players.....heinze, sameul, Bapitista, Woodgate, Cassino, Robinho

Just think how TRW would have been destroyed!!!

Hidden cheesecake wrote:I missed the game, were we any good or were Real just rubbish?

You sucked ass....its just that Real sucked ass AND cokc!!!

Liverpool

I'll be at the game at Anfield W00T

Real Madrid defender Fabio Cannavaro has said that Liverpool "did not make any effort to win the game" in Spain.
The Reds did eventually triumph 1-0 at the Bernabeu thanks to a
Yossi Benayoun goal but Cannavaro says Liverpool used rudimentary
tactics.
"At the Bernabeu, Liverpool did not make any effort to win the
game," Cannavaro told AS. "Throughout the match, their goalkeeper kept
sending long balls to Dirk Kuyt over and over again.
"I know for certain they will do the same at Anfield. I am sure
of it. We must play our best football and must also have a lot of
patience and eliminate any mistakes at the back. If we can score
against them, we will force them to come out and play.
"We do not have to go all out attack for 90 minutes. The key is
to open the field by looking for our wingers so that they can take on
their players one-on-one.
"We also have to take advantage of any mistakes their centre-backs might make because there's always a chance they will slip up.
"But we can't just rely on Arjen Robben or Marcelo or Wesley
Sneijder. If we want to win at Anfield, we have to play as a team
because we do not have individuals like Lionel Messi or Cristiano
Ronaldo. This Madrid side needs to unite as one, and that includes
players on the bench, the coaches and the physios.
"Liverpool are by no means a better team than Madrid. They are a
very organised and solid team and they know exactly how to play. They
are very compact because they have been playing more or less with the
same team for the last six years.
"For me, they are most dangerous on the counter and when it
comes to set-pieces. They will allow you to play and they will even
give you the ball, however, once they find a gap at the back, they will
score."

Ooooh! Wait until Glenn and COTR read that. They will not be very happy with Cannavaro! Probably call him bitter or something.

He's right that most of the game Reina sent long balls up to the forwards. Whether they'll do that at Anfield though, I'm not sure.

I don't think it will be like in Bernabeu but rather they will push more forward and put more pressure. Still think this game is mostly over unless something unexpected happens.

http://www.as.com/futbol/video/pepe-reina-ensena-ingles-iker/dasftb/20090309dasdasftb_2/Ves

Super Madrid wrote:I don't think it will be like in Bernabeu but rather they will push more forward and put more pressure. Still think this game is mostly over unless something unexpected happens.

Yeah I think he'll use the same template as he did against Barça in 2006-2007...attack ferociously for the first 15-20 mins to try and truly kill the game, otherwise settle for a 0-0 anyway.

So Cannavaro is saying Madrid are so shit that Liverpool beat them without even trying? Seems about right.

Also.. He knows nothing about our team obviously. Same defense for 6 years???

kas wrote:

Super Madrid wrote:I don't think it will be like in Bernabeu but rather they will push more forward and put more pressure. Still think this game is mostly over unless something unexpected happens.

Yeah I think he'll use the same template as he did against Barça in 2006-2007...attack ferociously for the first 15-20 mins to try and truly kill the game, otherwise settle for a 0-0 anyway.

That is the game I was thinking off. Either way I can't see it being a great game but I will hope for the unexpected. Hopefully though Juande will try to really attack because I can't stand for some half ass approach.

SM,

It will be half ass approach relying on individual skill of the attacking players, as I'm not yet convinced of their combination play at all. It wouldn't be full attack, because Liverpool are set for strong counters. And as Cana observed, set pieces are a major threat. It's still 80% in Liverpool's hands.