Real Madrid Vs. Liverpool Discussion Thread

Calidad wrote:

I'm not sure it's the personnel though. Are Arbeloa (granted Ramos had a shocker), Babel, Aurelio, Kuyt, etc really better than their Madrid counterparts? I'm not so sure.

Probably not.

But look at Liverpool's central midfield - alonso, masch and gerrard. Three top class players who piss all over Real's central midfielders. And that's where the game was won.

Also Carragher and Srktel may not be fashionable names, but they're a great centre back pairing. Compare that to Pepe-Cannavaro. Pepe is top class, Cannavaro is shite.

Our midfield was raped. Another problem with our team is that we cannot break teams down, and with Liverpool being compact and hard to break down, we were never going to score.

bluenine wrote:

Torrente wrote:This is really one of the worst nights of my life. I have tears of anger right now, I just can't believe what I just witnessed. I have never seen a Real Madrid team so impotent in the CL before. There's no point in even mentioning the refereing, because we got absolutely raped in every sense of the word. Every player tonight besides Casillas, Lass and Marcelo should be ashamed of representing Real Madrid tonight.

I just can't find the words to explain how I'm feeling right now. This team is an embarassment to the name of Real Madrid, but also to La Liga. How can the 2-time La Liga champions be outplayed like that in the CL? There's really so little to say about tonight's game. Liverpool were great and they made us look like a second rate team, which we probably are at the moment.

Feel for ya, mate. Real need a top top coach, who knows how to win and create a winning mentality at the club.

Its sad for everyone to see Real like this. It shouldn't be like this.

No it's not! And it should

Axeslammer wrote:Still no N'Gog ?!

Someone should shoot Benitez !

Why did you pick him as captain

Even with Torres as injury doubt, nothing about N'Gog indicates "yeah, likely scorer". To put him in the team in the first place is a gamble, but then to make him captain is just optimism of the highest order. Would be great if it came off, yeah, but the probability is so low that it's not worthwhile at all. Safe and easy option was Karagounis, was surprised that you didn't make him captain again.

Just want to say to the Madrid fans that at the end of the game something special took place between the two sets of supporters; the Madrid fans sang 'Liverpool! Liverpool!' and the whole ground applauded. The Madrid players also got a great reception when they came out for the second half and I was pleased to see the Madrid fans appluading Gerrard as he came off, it takes a great set of fans to recognise true class even when they are losing heavily. It was a fantastic night all round at Anfield and it's a shame that Madrid wont be playing any further part in this competition because it's a team I've always liked and a team that belongs in the champions league but right at this moment in time there are certain players who are unwilling to fight for the shirt in that team and this needs to be addressed.

Cheers Glenn

Even more reason why I hope he makes it. Would be nice to see a wee guy among a land of giants. He looks like he has the heart and balls to go for it.

Have heard of the Finnish guy because of FM. Will look at the other guy too.

Thanks

Tweedle wrote:

Calidad wrote:

I'm not sure it's the personnel though. Are Arbeloa (granted Ramos had a shocker), Babel, Aurelio, Kuyt, etc really better than their Madrid counterparts? I'm not so sure.

Probably not.

But look at Liverpool's central midfield - alonso, masch and gerrard. Three top class players who piss all over Real's central midfielders. And that's where the game was won.

Also Carragher and Srktel may not be fashionable names, but they're a great centre back pairing. Compare that to Pepe-Cannavaro. Pepe is top class, Cannavaro is shite.

Pool were faster, stronger & wanted it more. That's made the difference. If you overpower the opposition like Pool did to Real, you bound to outplay them too in the end.

I'm not saying it had nothing to do with other football abilities, but it's was children v grown men what decided it.

How on earth could Real's players be so casual / take too long on the ball when playing an English club. You should bloody know you've to play 1 touch.

Don't think the difference has a lot to do with individual football abilities, it's mainly a much much better physicaly & mentally prepared team. It was 21st century v 20 century...

Julio Ricardo CruZZZ wrote:

Tweedle wrote:

Calidad wrote:

I'm not sure it's the personnel though. Are Arbeloa (granted Ramos had a shocker), Babel, Aurelio, Kuyt, etc really better than their Madrid counterparts? I'm not so sure.

Probably not.

But look at Liverpool's central midfield - alonso, masch and gerrard. Three top class players who piss all over Real's central midfielders. And that's where the game was won.

Also Carragher and Srktel may not be fashionable names, but they're a great centre back pairing. Compare that to Pepe-Cannavaro. Pepe is top class, Cannavaro is shite.

Pool were faster, stronger & wanted it more. That's made the difference. If you overpower the opposition like Pool did to Real, you bound to outplay them too in the end.

I'm not saying it had nothing to do with other football abilities, but it's was children v grown men what decided it.

How on earth could Real's players be so casual / take too long on the ball when playing an English club. You should bloody know you've to play 1 touch.

Don't think the difference has a lot to do with individual football abilities, it's mainly a much much better physicaly & mentally prepared team. It was 21st century v 20 century...

That's exactly what I was trying to Madrid fans after the first leg. Hopefully this will be somewhat of a wake up call for Madrid and they can finally give up their stubborn nostalgia of how football should be played.

Say No to PGD.

Jorge Valdano wrote:Chelsea and Liverpool are the clearest, most exaggerated example of the way football is going: very intense, very collective, very tactical, very physical, and very direct," he added. "But, a short pass? Noooo. A feint? Noooo. A change of pace? Noooo. A one-two? A nutmeg? A backheel? Don't be ridiculous. None of that. The extreme control and seriousness with which both teams played the semi-final (Champion's League) neutralised any creative licence, any moments of exquisite skill.

If Didier Drogba was the best player in the first match it was purely because he was the one who ran the fastest, jumped the highest and crashed into people the hardest. Such extreme intensity wipes away talent, even leaving a player of Joe Cole's class disoriented. If football is going the way Chelsea and Liverpool are taking it, we had better be ready to wave goodbye to any expression of the cleverness and talent we have enjoyed for a century.

Olé wrote:Say No to PGD.

Jorge Valdano wrote:Chelsea and Liverpool are the clearest, most exaggerated example of the way football is going: very intense, very collective, very tactical, very physical, and very direct," he added. "But, a short pass? Noooo. A feint? Noooo. A change of pace? Noooo. A one-two? A nutmeg? A backheel? Don't be ridiculous. None of that. The extreme control and seriousness with which both teams played the semi-final (Champion's League) neutralised any creative licence, any moments of exquisite skill.

If Didier Drogba was the best player in the first match it was purely because he was the one who ran the fastest, jumped the highest and crashed into people the hardest. Such extreme intensity wipes away talent, even leaving a player of Joe Cole's class disoriented. If football is going the way Chelsea and Liverpool are taking it, we had better be ready to wave goodbye to any expression of the cleverness and talent we have enjoyed for a century.

Well last night Liverpool were very entertaining. If that's the way football's going then i honestly don't see the problem.

Sure, there was PDG - but there was also great triangular passing, movement and flair.

bluenine wrote:

Torrente wrote:This is really one of the worst nights of my life. I have tears of anger right now, I just can't believe what I just witnessed. I have never seen a Real Madrid team so impotent in the CL before. There's no point in even mentioning the refereing, because we got absolutely raped in every sense of the word. Every player tonight besides Casillas, Lass and Marcelo should be ashamed of representing Real Madrid tonight.

I just can't find the words to explain how I'm feeling right now. This team is an embarassment to the name of Real Madrid, but also to La Liga. How can the 2-time La Liga champions be outplayed like that in the CL? There's really so little to say about tonight's game. Liverpool were great and they made us look like a second rate team, which we probably are at the moment.

Feel for ya, mate. Real need a top top coach, who knows how to win and create a winning mentality at the club.

Its sad for everyone to see Real like this. It shouldn't be like this.

Cheers Bluenine, but we deserve to be in this mess since the club has only itself to blame. It has really been destruction from within, with external factors being the least influential.

Six wrote:

Julio Ricardo CruZZZ wrote:

Tweedle wrote:

Calidad wrote:

I'm not sure it's the personnel though. Are Arbeloa (granted Ramos had a shocker), Babel, Aurelio, Kuyt, etc really better than their Madrid counterparts? I'm not so sure.

Probably not.

But look at Liverpool's central midfield - alonso, masch and gerrard. Three top class players who piss all over Real's central midfielders. And that's where the game was won.

Also Carragher and Srktel may not be fashionable names, but they're a great centre back pairing. Compare that to Pepe-Cannavaro. Pepe is top class, Cannavaro is shite.

Pool were faster, stronger & wanted it more. That's made the difference. If you overpower the opposition like Pool did to Real, you bound to outplay them too in the end.

I'm not saying it had nothing to do with other football abilities, but it's was children v grown men what decided it.

How on earth could Real's players be so casual / take too long on the ball when playing an English club. You should bloody know you've to play 1 touch.

Don't think the difference has a lot to do with individual football abilities, it's mainly a much much better physicaly & mentally prepared team. It was 21st century v 20 century...

That's exactly what I was trying to Madrid fans after the first leg. Hopefully this will be somewhat of a wake up call for Madrid and they can finally give up their stubborn nostalgia of how football should be played.

The fans will NEVER give up on this so called nostalgia. It's ingrained in Real Madrid as much as anything else. Attacking football is part of the club's identity, and the fans will never be fully content unless the team plays champaign football, even if titles are won.

Last night's failure was hardly anything to do with playing naive attacking football. We were playing with 2 DMs, a left wing consisting of a fullback who doesn't know how to attack (or defend for that matter) and a media punta who always drifted to the center (Sneijder).

You can bet that after Florentino Perez takes over next year, you will see another attempt at recreating the pre-2005 football Real Madrid used to play. Playing with 2 DMs should be outlawed at all times, and there should always be at least one creative midfielder in the lineup. If a fullback is not good enough to at least attack from time to time, then he can fuck off as well.

I would rather the team fail in attempting this than conforming that we have to start playing as the likes of Mourinho, Capello and Benitez (though I must admit the latter employed ultra-offensive tactics yesterday).

Tweedle wrote:

Olé wrote:Say No to PGD.

Jorge Valdano wrote:Chelsea and Liverpool are the clearest, most exaggerated example of the way football is going: very intense, very collective, very tactical, very physical, and very direct," he added. "But, a short pass? Noooo. A feint? Noooo. A change of pace? Noooo. A one-two? A nutmeg? A backheel? Don't be ridiculous. None of that. The extreme control and seriousness with which both teams played the semi-final (Champion's League) neutralised any creative licence, any moments of exquisite skill.

If Didier Drogba was the best player in the first match it was purely because he was the one who ran the fastest, jumped the highest and crashed into people the hardest. Such extreme intensity wipes away talent, even leaving a player of Joe Cole's class disoriented. If football is going the way Chelsea and Liverpool are taking it, we had better be ready to wave goodbye to any expression of the cleverness and talent we have enjoyed for a century.

Well last night Liverpool were very entertaining. If that's the way football's going then i honestly don't see the problem.

Sure, there was PDG - but there was also great triangular passing, movement and flair.

The match being end-to-end does not necessarily make it exciting. Take RM performance last night: Casillas would release the ball to Ramos, Ramos miscontrols it, Babel starts an attack. If that had been Benitez's team making those mistakes he'd be fuming.

The same happened in the WC games between Italy and Germany it was apparently "exciting" because it was end-to-end stuff, but technically it was poor, as both teams kept losing the ball cheaply in midfield allowing the others to start an attack.

Maybe I'm being snobbish, but if I want to see an end-to-end game I'll watch basketball.

@torrente
having a physically well prepared team & playing attacking footy are not mutually exclusive. you can have PGD & play good too.

Olé wrote:Say No to PGD.

Jorge Valdano wrote:Chelsea and Liverpool are the clearest, most exaggerated example of the way football is going: very intense, very collective, very tactical, very physical, and very direct," he added. "But, a short pass? Noooo. A feint? Noooo. A change of pace? Noooo. A one-two? A nutmeg? A backheel? Don't be ridiculous. None of that. The extreme control and seriousness with which both teams played the semi-final (Champion's League) neutralised any creative licence, any moments of exquisite skill.

If Didier Drogba was the best player in the first match it was purely because he was the one who ran the fastest, jumped the highest and crashed into people the hardest. Such extreme intensity wipes away talent, even leaving a player of Joe Cole's class disoriented. If football is going the way Chelsea and Liverpool are taking it, we had better be ready to wave goodbye to any expression of the cleverness and talent we have enjoyed for a century.

Thanks for posting this Olé (even if it is two years old – I never realized quite how articulate he'd been; it's funny – I ended up last night again YouTubing that stunning Maradona performance in the WC semi against Belgium in '86, in which of course he played a prominent role...).

This is the perfect summary of the debate we should be having on here (and which the English broadsheets for instance completely sidestep or rather ignore, preferring generalized hype or else high-horse moral posturing about the message the behaviour of the likes of Cashley Cole sends out to modern society). Liverpool were fantastic last night, and Madrid were outclassed and deservedly made to look second-rate. However, I've got to admit they (Liverpool) almost bored me to tears in the first leg, and I can't pretend I've ever been a fan of Chelsea's attritional style either, even when it's effective. I have to say I for one am rather torn on this – for those of us who are optimistic, we have to believe that it is still possible to have our cake and eat it (the athleticism, speed, efficiency and teamwork ALLIED to the moments of class, genius, improvisation, creativity and beauty that make football worthwhile. After all, you can hardly call any team a great one if it does not ally these two aspects (if indeed they are entirely different) to a high degree.

Torrente wrote:

Six wrote:

Julio Ricardo CruZZZ wrote:

Tweedle wrote:

Calidad wrote:

I'm not sure it's the personnel though. Are Arbeloa (granted Ramos had a shocker), Babel, Aurelio, Kuyt, etc really better than their Madrid counterparts? I'm not so sure.

Probably not.

But look at Liverpool's central midfield - alonso, masch and gerrard. Three top class players who piss all over Real's central midfielders. And that's where the game was won.

Also Carragher and Srktel may not be fashionable names, but they're a great centre back pairing. Compare that to Pepe-Cannavaro. Pepe is top class, Cannavaro is shite.

Pool were faster, stronger & wanted it more. That's made the difference. If you overpower the opposition like Pool did to Real, you bound to outplay them too in the end.

I'm not saying it had nothing to do with other football abilities, but it's was children v grown men what decided it.

How on earth could Real's players be so casual / take too long on the ball when playing an English club. You should bloody know you've to play 1 touch.

Don't think the difference has a lot to do with individual football abilities, it's mainly a much much better physicaly & mentally prepared team. It was 21st century v 20 century...

That's exactly what I was trying to Madrid fans after the first leg. Hopefully this will be somewhat of a wake up call for Madrid and they can finally give up their stubborn nostalgia of how football should be played.

The fans will NEVER give up on this so called nostalgia. It's ingrained in Real Madrid as much as anything else. Attacking football is part of the club's identity, and the fans will never be fully content unless the team plays champaign football, even if titles are won.

Last night's failure was hardly anything to do with playing naive attacking football. We were playing with 2 DMs, a left wing consisting of a fullback who doesn't know how to attack (or defend for that matter) and a media punta who always drifted to the center (Sneijder).

You can bet that after Florentino Perez takes over next year, you will see another attempt at recreating the pre-2005 football Real Madrid used to play. Playing with 2 DMs should be outlawed at all times, and there should always be at least one creative midfielder in the lineup. If a fullback is not good enough to at least attack from time to time, then he can fuck off as well.

I would rather the team fail in attempting this than conforming that we have to start playing as the likes of Mourinho, Capello and Benitez (though I must admit the latter employed ultra-offensive tactics yesterday).

You can still play attacking football. It's just compromising in certain areas in order to make it easier for your attacking players, instead of just putting them all out there and hoping for the best. It's little things, such as having a player like Alonso instead of a player like Guti. You may call him a DM, but he is a better passer than anyone at Liverpool or Madrid. Again, compromise in this area, and make up for it by having your fullbacks get much further forward. Raul has to go, and should be replaced by someone more Eto'o and less Huntelaar. There's so many of these points to make. Really, as much as you may hate it, Madrid have to look at Barca because they have adapted to modern football far better than Madrid have.

If I were Madrid, I would break the bank to get Wenger (or whoever) and give him plenty of support and time. Club needs stability and just to get back to basics.

Six wrote:

Julio Ricardo CruZZZ wrote:

Tweedle wrote:

Calidad wrote:

I'm not sure it's the personnel though. Are Arbeloa (granted Ramos had a shocker), Babel, Aurelio, Kuyt, etc really better than their Madrid counterparts? I'm not so sure.

Probably not.

But look at Liverpool's central midfield - alonso, masch and gerrard. Three top class players who piss all over Real's central midfielders. And that's where the game was won.

Also Carragher and Srktel may not be fashionable names, but they're a great centre back pairing. Compare that to Pepe-Cannavaro. Pepe is top class, Cannavaro is shite.

Pool were faster, stronger & wanted it more. That's made the difference. If you overpower the opposition like Pool did to Real, you bound to outplay them too in the end.

I'm not saying it had nothing to do with other football abilities, but it's was children v grown men what decided it.

How on earth could Real's players be so casual / take too long on the ball when playing an English club. You should bloody know you've to play 1 touch.

Don't think the difference has a lot to do with individual football abilities, it's mainly a much much better physicaly & mentally prepared team. It was 21st century v 20 century...

That's exactly what I was trying to Madrid fans after the first leg. Hopefully this will be somewhat of a wake up call for Madrid and they can finally give up their stubborn nostalgia of how football should be played.

Well the point you and some others are misunderstanding is that the match last night was not a victory for physical/organised football vs. "nostalgic" football. Madrid have so many other problems with personnel and tactics that even their attempts to play good football are shit. Barcelona have already beaten them this season, but Roma and Arsenal, to take two examples of teams that usually play "good football" would also have beaten them. To have a true test of "20th century vs. 21st century", it would require the current Barça vs. Liverpool or Inter, for example.


Edit: I see that you've made a similar point in your post just now

As for your suggestion of "get Wenger and give him time", unfortunately that will never happen at Madrid or Barça. The bulk of the fans would rather keep switching between periods of extreme short-term success and extreme failure rather than consistent building of a long-term project (but not as long-term as Liverpool is turning out to be )

kas wrote:

Six wrote:

Julio Ricardo CruZZZ wrote:

Tweedle wrote:

Calidad wrote:

I'm not sure it's the personnel though. Are Arbeloa (granted Ramos had a shocker), Babel, Aurelio, Kuyt, etc really better than their Madrid counterparts? I'm not so sure.

Probably not.

But look at Liverpool's central midfield - alonso, masch and gerrard. Three top class players who piss all over Real's central midfielders. And that's where the game was won.

Also Carragher and Srktel may not be fashionable names, but they're a great centre back pairing. Compare that to Pepe-Cannavaro. Pepe is top class, Cannavaro is shite.

Pool were faster, stronger & wanted it more. That's made the difference. If you overpower the opposition like Pool did to Real, you bound to outplay them too in the end.

I'm not saying it had nothing to do with other football abilities, but it's was children v grown men what decided it.

How on earth could Real's players be so casual / take too long on the ball when playing an English club. You should bloody know you've to play 1 touch.

Don't think the difference has a lot to do with individual football abilities, it's mainly a much much better physicaly & mentally prepared team. It was 21st century v 20 century...

That's exactly what I was trying to Madrid fans after the first leg. Hopefully this will be somewhat of a wake up call for Madrid and they can finally give up their stubborn nostalgia of how football should be played.

Well the point you and some others are misunderstanding is that the match last night was not a victory for physical/organised football vs. "nostalgic" football. Madrid have so many other problems with personnel and tactics that even their attempts to play good football are shit. Barcelona have already beaten them this season, but Roma and Arsenal, to take two examples of teams that usually play "good football" would also have beaten them. To have a true test of "20th century vs. 21st century", it would require the current Barça vs. Liverpool or Inter, for example.

That's exactly what I said about Madrid after the first leg. I said they wouldn't played great football no matter what Liverpool had done. Madrid fans disagreed and criticised our style of play. It's a victory for balanced football and running clubs the English way imo.

I don't think the current Barca play 20th Century football at all, I think they have adapted their game unlike Madrid. But that's a different point altogether.

Kas: Clearly I will just never understand Spanish fans.

I can see what people are getting at though when they "complain" about the direction the EPL teams are forcing the elite level of football in.

15 years ago a side with Villareal's makeup would've had every chance of winning the CL, nowadays they don't.

Percentages dominate everything; who wins the aerial ciontest, who gets the loose ball 1st, who pressurises the best, who can force a mistake, and generate a chance where there'll be deflections/rebounds.

Not much room for smaller fantasy players who like to play the perfect pass & shoot for the corner.

Liverpool were great to watch for their sheer intensity, the hunted for the ball in packs, forcing Madrid to cough up possession and then stormed forward in numbers. There was nothing deliberate or crafted about it, Rather than take a well-sharpened samurai sword to Madrid, or a well planned out hit job, it was more of a brutal strangulation, Liverpool wasted no time, not giving Madrid the chance have a stab at them, and instead just grabbed them by the throat from the moment the 1st whistle sounded, and didn't let go until the breathing stopped.

The HuddFather wrote:I can see what people are getting at though when they "complain" about the direction the EPL teams are forcing the elite level of football in.

15 years ago a side with Villareal's makeup would've had every chance of winning the CL, nowadays they don't.

Percentages dominate everything; who wins the aerial ciontest, who gets the loose ball 1st, who pressurises the best, who can force a mistake, and generate a chance where there'll be deflections/rebounds.

Not much room for smaller fantasy players who like to play the perfect pass & shoot for the corner.

Liverpool were great to watch for their sheer intensity, the hunted for the ball in packs, forcing Madrid to cough up possession and then stormed forward in numbers. There was nothing deliberate or crafted about it, Rather than take a well-sharpened samurai sword to Madrid, or a well planned out hit job, it was more of a brutal strangulation, Liverpool wasted no time, not giving Madrid the chance have a stab at them, and instead just grabbed them by the throat from the moment the 1st whistle sounded, and didn't let go until the breathing stopped.

Nice post!

Tweedle wrote:

The HuddFather wrote:I can see what people are getting at though when they "complain" about the direction the EPL teams are forcing the elite level of football in.

15 years ago a side with Villareal's makeup would've had every chance of winning the CL, nowadays they don't.

Percentages dominate everything; who wins the aerial ciontest, who gets the loose ball 1st, who pressurises the best, who can force a mistake, and generate a chance where there'll be deflections/rebounds.

Not much room for smaller fantasy players who like to play the perfect pass & shoot for the corner.

Liverpool were great to watch for their sheer intensity, the hunted for the ball in packs, forcing Madrid to cough up possession and then stormed forward in numbers. There was nothing deliberate or crafted about it, Rather than take a well-sharpened samurai sword to Madrid, or a well planned out hit job, it was more of a brutal strangulation, Liverpool wasted no time, not giving Madrid the chance have a stab at them, and instead just grabbed them by the throat from the moment the 1st whistle sounded, and didn't let go until the breathing stopped.

Nice post!

If I could develop the style of fights analogy further...

When we beat 'boro 4-0 last week, that was more of a classic sword fight/martal arts face-off. You have a go at me, I'll have a go at you, may the best man win. Boro made a few misjudgements and each time they paid for it. Whereas for Madrid it was like one of those Horror movies where the killer (Liverpool) bursts into view out of nowhere and gives you no time to react, carrying out a merciless lengthy assault.

what do people make of the refereeing performance? Would it be an exaggeration to say it was one of the worst ever in the history of professional sport?

Apart from Mascherano's booking, none of the decisions were truly critical.

Glennathinaikos wrote:what do people make of the refereeing performance? Would it be an exaggeration to say it was one of the worst ever in the history of professional sport?

It was bad....but it was nowhere near Graham Poll's level in the Australia - Croatia match.

The HuddFather wrote:Apart from Mascherano's booking, none of the decisions were truly critical.

the penalty? Heinze's booking? Gerrard's booking? Looked like Real could have had a penalty in the 2nd half?

Axeslammer wrote:

Glennathinaikos wrote:what do people make of the refereeing performance? Would it be an exaggeration to say it was one of the worst ever in the history of professional sport?

It was bad....but it was nowhere near Graham Poll's level in the Australia - Croatia match.

tbh all the referees in the 2006 WC were quite appalling.

The Russian ref in the Holland-Portugal game was so bad he made it more entertaining match, as Poll did with his infamous 3 card trick on Simunic.

Glennathinaikos wrote:

The HuddFather wrote:Apart from Mascherano's booking, none of the decisions were truly critical.

the penalty? Heinze's booking? Gerrard's booking? Looked like Real could have had a penalty in the 2nd half?

None of it made a difference. Gerrard's booking he actually got right IMO.

The HuddFather wrote:
The Russian ref in the Holland-Portugal game was so bad he made it more entertaining match, as Poll did with his infamous 3 card trick on Simunic.

Would you believe I've completely forgotten all about that match and that idiotic clown Ivanov

Both Holland and Portugal have had more than 5 match-altering decisions gone wrongly against them in that match, that was madness from the highest order


....and I'm still convinced Van Bastard gave our players the order to kick the Portuguese around....the fucking retarded idiot !

Liverpool smashed real madrid haha