Premier League Discussion Sat 4/Sun 5/Mon 6 December 2010

Kimbo wrote:

NeoChap wrote:Campbell has been awful, and stood back for both goals - one of a number of weak individual performances from Newcastle. Carroll, by no means the worst, does not look much like an international forward today. Tiote has done fine. Alan Smith's hair is unfortunately Beckhamesque.

Tchoyi (height, pace) did nicely on his goal, and has probably improved overall in the second half, but I'd not say he's a standout player in this side. Morrisson/Brunt much more important and Jerome Thomas has probably been the equal of Tchoyi today (no rly).

Always best to judge players by their worst performance in a season. :k:

And it's another bullshit phrase. What English players do look "international" class?

I'm all for judging players, or teams, by their bad performances. The extent to which a player goes downhill when things are against them is important, and most of the highest achieving players are, well, alright when they're bad. The game is stuffed with intermittently gifted players.

Not many english players suit the international game as it currently stands. This is reflected in the England team not being any good.

1532: SUNDERLAND v WEST HAM
Sunderland: Gordon, Onuoha, Mensah, Ferdinand, Bardsley, Henderson, Cattermole, Richardson, Welbeck, Bent, Gyan. Subs: Mignolet, Zenden, Malbranque, Angeleri, Da Silva, Riveros, Elmohamady.
West Ham: Green, Gabbidon, Tomkins, Upson, Ben-Haim, Dyer, Parker, Spector, Boa Morte, Obinna, Cole. Subs: Reid, Barrera, Kovac, Faubert, Hines, Spence, Piquionne.
Referee: Martin Atkinson (W Yorkshire)

Really happy to see Tomkins starting today. Really talented IMO.

4 Centre backs :O

That was certainly one of our worst performances of the season, and disappointing because there were no factors mitigating such a bad performance - whereas at Bolton a few weeks ago, the game ran away from us; whilst at home to Blackpool and Stoke earlier in the season we arguably struggled for creativity and fluidity against sitting defences; today we were flat from the start, weak in the challenge, couldn't hold on to the ball, and never really looked like getting into the game at 0-0 or for the forty minutes we were only a goal down.

I have been an advocate of varying our centre-back pairing over the course of the season, to the demands of different opposition - whilst I admire Coloccini and Williamson's abilities with the ball, I have felt and still feel that a physical presence may be required against some teams, and I think Taylor has in the past also been useful for his pace and his willingness to bring the ball forward. Though they haven't played much either together or apart this season, today suggested that Campbell and Taylor aren't a great pairing.

Guthrie gave perhaps his worst performance for us, but reading elsewhere he is being vilified for his performance, and I think the conclusions which are being drawn from it are unfair. Owing to the sum we paid for him, the wages we pay him, and his lack of renown in comparison with Nolan, Barton and Smith, Guthrie has always found himself behind those other players in the pecking order for the central midfield positions, whilst his performances have tended to suggest he is the best player of the lot. He was, in my view, our only worthwhile central midfielder in our relegation season; he was our best midfielder and our top assister last season in the Championship; and though Barton and Nolan have had good games this season, I'm not convinced they will offer us more than Guthrie in the long term.

Ideally, in that relatively long term, I'd like us to sign a right winger in January and play a 4-5-1 with Tiote and Guthrie behind Gutierrez, Ben Arfa, the right winger and Caroll up front. I think that group would be capable of retaining the ball well high-up the pitch. Whatever, we do need to make signings next month, and I think a right-winger and a striker should be priorities. We could do with more competition throughout the squad. I think Vuckic and Ranger should be given more playing time, and perhaps they should even be given occasional starts, which is reasonable given our lack of alternative options. Lua Lua is injured now, but I think he too should have been kept about and played this season considering Gutierrez and Routledge are the only wide players we have.

This game is being played at 100mph without much happening.

Bashmachkin wrote:That was certainly one of our worst performances of the season, and disappointing because there were no factors mitigating such a bad performance - whereas at Bolton a few weeks ago, the game ran away from us; whilst at home to Blackpool and Stoke earlier in the season we arguably struggled for creativity and fluidity against sitting defences; today we were flat from the start, weak in the challenge, couldn't hold on to the ball, and never really looked like getting into the game at 0-0 or for the forty minutes we were only a goal down.

I have been an advocate of varying our centre-back pairing over the course of the season, to the demands of different opposition - whilst I admire Coloccini and Williamson's abilities with the ball, I have felt and still feel that a physical presence may be required against some teams, and I think Taylor has in the past also been useful for his pace and his willingness to bring the ball forward. Though they haven't played much either together or apart this season, today suggested that Campbell and Taylor aren't a great pairing.

Guthrie gave perhaps his worst performance for us, but reading elsewhere he is being vilified for his performance, and I think the conclusions which are being drawn from it are unfair. Owing to the sum we paid for him, the wages we pay him, and his lack of renown in comparison with Nolan, Barton and Smith, Guthrie has always found himself behind those other players in the pecking order for the central midfield positions, whilst his performances have tended to suggest he is the best player of the lot. He was, in my view, our only worthwhile central midfielder in our relegation season; he was our best midfielder and our top assister last season in the Championship; and though Barton and Nolan have had good games this season, I'm not convinced they will offer us more than Guthrie in the long term.

Ideally, in that relatively long term, I'd like us to sign a right winger in January and play a 4-5-1 with Tiote and Guthrie behind Gutierrez, Ben Arfa, the right winger and Caroll up front. I think that group would be capable of retaining the ball well high-up the pitch. Whatever, we do need to make signings next month, and I think a right-winger and a striker should be priorities. We could do with more competition throughout the squad. I think Vuckic and Ranger should be given more playing time, and perhaps they should even be given occasional starts, which is reasonable given our lack of alternative options. Lua Lua is injured now, but I think he too should have been kept about and played this season considering Gutierrez and Routledge are the only wide players we have.

But what does Guthrie have over Barton? The guy was overhitting simple passes today, it was embarrassing. And his set-pieces were abysmal, especially in comparison to Barton who has had several assists from them this season.

1-0 Sunderland

Great finish from Henderson

Gyan clips the bar - was meant to be a cross though.

I don't think Guthrie and Barton are too dissimilar - as central midfielders, they both like to sit and pass the ball, and they can both weight passes well when on form, whilst they lack pace and stamina, goal threat and a bit of presence. I think Guthrie has better feet than Barton and so, in the centre of the pitch, is able to retain the ball better and create a little more. I think he's also a little firmer and more persistent in the challenge than Barton. Barton, for his part, does take better set-pieces, and when a pass is in front of him he can arguably weight that pass more consistently than Guthrie; and I think his crossing ability and his agility make him more suited to the right flank if one of the two players has to play there. Still, in the centre of the pitch, I prefer Guthrie and I think his performances in that position since he joined us have bettered Barton's.

Was please by the performance yesterday, we played with a high tempo and should have won by more. We dominated the game and attacked a lot more, whilst we were still solid at the back, Kompany and yaya were great and Silva dictated play in the final third. We are only 3 points off top and although scum have a game in hand the likes of Chelsea and U*d have some tough games coming up so hopefully we can gain on them over the next month or so.

People love to slate us but we are through to the final 32 of the Europa League with a game to spare and in the top 4 only 3 pts off the top. Players are coming back from injury and we are looking stronger. There are areas we need to improve such as scoing more goals and killing off games...we led at Wolves and let them back in likewise at Stoke, also we need to have other scoring goals and not rely so much on Tevez but these are areas i think we will improve on over time. People said before the season it would be our defence that would cost us but its the second best in the league, mancini has worked wonders with it. Overall im happy with how things are going and confident of finish 4th if not higher.

Spector

Bashmachkin wrote:I don't think Guthrie and Barton are too dissimilar - as central midfielders, they both like to sit and pass the ball, and they can both weight passes well when on form, whilst they lack pace and stamina, goal threat and a bit of presence. I think Guthrie has better feet than Barton and so, in the centre of the pitch, is able to retain the ball better and create a little more. I think he's also a little firmer and more persistent in the challenge than Barton. Barton, for his part, does take better set-pieces, and when a pass is in front of him he can arguably weight that pass more consistently than Guthrie; and I think his crossing ability and his agility make him more suited to the right flank if one of the two players has to play there. Still, in the centre of the pitch, I prefer Guthrie and I think his performances in that position since he joined us have bettered Barton's.

There's no way that Guthrie is better in the challenge than Barton, the guy is a little weakling that always ends up on the floor when it gets physical. Personally i don't think he should play for us again, loan him out to a lower league side(no premiership side would take him) in january and get a replacement. We're far too patient with some players.

Man, why in the world did we not have Spector in the middle at the start of the season

Better from W'Ham this half.

Pretty dire defeat - thank god it's over.

Sgoater1 wrote:
Was please by the performance yesterday, we played with a high tempo and should have won by more. We dominated the game and attacked a lot more, whilst we were still solid at the back, Kompany and yaya were great and Silva dictated play in the final third. We are only 3 points off top and although scum have a game in hand the likes of Chelsea and U*d have some tough games coming up so hopefully we can gain on them over the next month or so.

People love to slate us but we are through to the final 32 of the Europa League with a game to spare and in the top 4 only 3 pts off the top. Players are coming back from injury and we are looking stronger. There are areas we need to improve such as scoing more goals and killing off games...we led at Wolves and let them back in likewise at Stoke, also we need to have other scoring goals and not rely so much on Tevez but these are areas i think we will improve on over time. People said before the season it would be our defence that would cost us but its the second best in the league, mancini has worked wonders with it. Overall im happy with how things are going and confident of finish 4th if not higher.

While I mostly agree with you, Mancini is still playing three attackers instead of four. If you want to take the pressure off Tevez then you need a player either side of him and one in behind too. Or at least a couple more attack minded facking runners in midfield than you're playing at the moment.

I think Guthrie is generally less athletic than Barton and should be weaker in the tackle, but I don't think that usually proves the case. Guthrie isn't strong but he does get stuck in and he can be pretty persistent; whereas Barton is soft in the challenge and has in the past tended to make up for it by making one challenge in ten a crunching one, often needlessly so. Again, in fairness to Barton, I don't think he considers himself a combative midfielder - I think he sees himself as a playmaker, and this is more what his strengths conduce to. Guthrie had an awful game today, worse than any Nolan and Barton have produced this season, but he is short of playing time, hasn't had a run in the side, and still I stand by the view that he's been a better midfielder for us than either since joining the club, in both the Championship and the Premiership.

Yeep. Didn't realize A.Young was suspended tonight, and Bannan is a doubt with injury

Might be looking at something like:

Clark-Hogg
Fonz-Ireland-Downing
Agbonlahor

or maybe Carew-Gabby up front.

Really need Ireland to do more than make 2 nice passes and go missing for the rest of the match! I hold out some hope that he'll combine well with Gabby if the latter sits on the shoulders of the defence - don't think they've played together much yet.

Hughton sacked.

Mental decision.

Keegan ?

Jaime wrote:Hughton sacked.

Madness. They've been inconsistent, but all newly promoted teams are inconsistent.

Can only assume they have someone lined up and were just waiting for an excuse to sack Hughton to get him in. Bolton and Brom were poor results but hardly sufficient to sack a manager who got them promoted last season and a few weeks earlier beat local rivals 5-1 and won at Arsenal!

SHEARER, SHEARER, SHEARER!

Deluded F*ck wrote:SHEARER, SHEARER, SHEARER!

Things are back to normal at Newcastle.

London media got him sacked.

Six wrote:London media got him sacked.

Never!

debaser wrote:

Jaime wrote:Hughton sacked.

Madness. They've been inconsistent, but all newly promoted teams are inconsistent.

Can only assume they have someone lined up and were just waiting for an excuse to sack Hughton to get him in. Bolton and Brom were poor results but hardly sufficient to sack a manager who got them promoted last season and a few weeks earlier beat local rivals 5-1 and won at Arsenal!

Not to mention drawing at Chelsea! Seems like their good results are very good but their bad results are very bad. But again, they've just been promoted so you would expect it to be a bit up and down. Their home form probably isn't as good as they would have liked but they are ahead of Liverpool, Villa (sorry debaser), and Everton so it's not really that bad going.

That dickhead SportsDirect@StJamesPark.com chairman has undone the only good decision he ever made.