Tottenham Hotspur 2011 / 2012

TheCrazy58 wrote:Extremely bad idea to get the Army in. There will be bloodshed if they get deployed.

Furthermore, the cops would lose all credibility.

@ Chinny - a day late on that one.

Didn't do much good in Northern Ireland did it?

shazlx wrote:I love how grown men are crying our for the military to come in or the police to be merciful because this countries gone soft. Er ever thought it might help if you, 20/30 somethings get out and group together to deal with the rioters and looters yourself instead of waiting for the corrupt incompetent police? If the countries gone soft, its because you're the soft ones. These are only kids. 100 kids vs 300 full adult men. These kid will go crying home to their mummies.

One of the worst aspects of current British culture and probably influenced these riots is that we expect someone else to do that something because we've paid our taxes.

Me myself, I'm not that bothered about the riots. The Met police ARE c**ts. And the negligence to young people by the government wasn't just effecting the scummy kids. It meant the good kids couldn't go out and play football or hang out with their mates without the risk of fights or muggings.

Hopefully these riots and looting will be a catalyst for change. Both from the authorities and communities on how they deal with rowdy kids. Maybe we might get an overall net benefit.

As I said in the other thread, they may be kids but they're still a dangerous threat because clearly they don't have any morals or regard for anything. If they burn shops and cars what's to say they wont stab people if they go out and confront them? What if people stab the kids, it's a potential nightmare situation where people will die and no one will know who was right or wrong.

The only thing the Government should do at this point is give police more power if they aren't going to send the army in. Tear gas, batons, whatever, just give them something other than a fucking shield.

What would the army actually do, surely they wouldn't come in armed with SA80's, that would be a tad extreme.

Kimbo wrote:What would the army actually do, surely they wouldn't come in armed with SA80's, that would be a tad extreme.

They'd roll their tanks over them all and waste them like on GTA

Another reason is that parents have been stripped of disciplining powers. Fuck this shit, I am definitely beating my kids.

Deluded F*ck™ wrote:Another reason is that parents have been stripped of disciplining powers. Fuck this shit, I am definitely beating my kids.

Most of these youth's parents will already be in prison I imagine.

Deluded F*ck wrote:Another reason is that parents have been stripped of disciplining powers. Fuck this shit, I am definitely beating my kids.

Blacks.

Kimbo wrote:

Deluded F*ck wrote:Another reason is that parents have been stripped of disciplining powers. Fuck this shit, I am definitely beating my kids.

Blacks.

If that whipping meant one less wasteman, then it's all good!

I've got an email from my embassy telling me not to 'approach areas of disturbance and take extreme caution'

Deluded F*ck wrote:Another reason is that parents have been stripped of disciplining powers. Fuck this shit, I am definitely beating my kids.

Yeah, cause beating teenagers is really going to work.

A child's behavior is formed at much younger age when attention and positive interest in he child is more valuable than corporal punishment. Its been proven, If you want to see it in action, just watch some super nanny.

There is a lot of talk of break down of The Family as the reason for so many indisciplined young people and I agree but for different reasons than usual. Traditionally an extended family would not only provide extra hands and more time for the parents but crucially guidance on parenting itself. Mothers would pass down tips on how to bring up a child to daughters/ daughters in law. Similarly fathers to a lesser extent to advise sons. That does not occur anymore so such a degree. Its not just single mothers that are on their own. Young couples who have been bought up in a individualistic lifestyle just don't know how to raise a child. And why would they?

Raising a child is probably one of the hardest things anyone can do but if your parents don't pass down tips and advice how would you know how to look after a family? If you found out tomorrow that you would be a parent and you knew you never had a lot of support from both you and your partners parents what would you do? Would you know what to do?

Once upon a time you had girls coached to raise babies, cook, clean, keep things tidy from a young age and boys where told to study hard or learn a trade. Now both sexes just learn what they pick up in school then go out and party. Kids who are naturally independent and aspirational with make it. Kids who have good parents to guide them will make it. But the rest will have to wing it. And most do well enough. But some get pregnant. They then have to and raise the kids without much support and do not especially badly (baby P) but not well either. Add these kids to all the other kids on the estate and you can see where it leads. The gangs, boredom, testosterone...

Of all the government policies to help kids in deprived areas, I really think they should do more to help parents so the parents can look after their kids better and so the state doesn't have to. Its no point just giving a newly mother a flat and child support money if she doesn't know how to raise her kid. I think child support should come with parenting training which starts as soon as the girl knows she's pregnant.

Mothers and Fathers should be coached on holding a family unit. That includes, discipline, education (how to help their kids), nutrition, budgeting, entertainment (cheap enough to afford), hygiene, emotional support. And other stuff needed got raise children.Ift should appreciate the challenging of parenting in the current era of crowded estates, both parents working, TV, Internet, obesity...

This coaching should be available to all soon to be parents and parents of young children. It should be mandatory for anyone receiving child benefit.

We might have to right off this generation unless we spend some serious money on one on one mentoring.

Bashmachkin wrote:I don't mean to suggest that the majority or even a number of the rioters are acting motivated directly by things like the banking crisis and the NOTW affair; don't mean to say that I feel the rioters are acting to protest in some way about these things or that they'd cite grievances in these areas as reasons for their behaviour. I don't think there is anything high-minded about the rioting (perhaps 'vandalism' better suits?). But I think that the recession, the government's response to the recession, and the various debates that have been had by politicians and newspapers regarding those responsible for it, have probably fed into a very general sense of injustice in many people; I'd guess that a broad result of the NOTW affair thus far has been a loss of respect for the police; and together these things encourage a sort of anarchist impulse to act recklessly, violently, selfishly, as if in the face of all authority.

In this same way, I can accept that another factor in the rioting is the lack of strong communities and community spirit, and that at least the manner of the welfare state over the past however many years has worked to erode strong communities and, more, individual resourcefulness. I see the absence of community spirit playing a part; but I don't see it as the only or as the principle cause of the rioting, and I don't see the welfare state alone as having resulted in its loss. The article to me does suggest that an absence of community spirit, caused by the welfare state, is predominantly if not solely responsible for the rioting, and I think that argument is as narrow and as prescriptive as the arguments it elsewhere criticises.

Sorry Bash, it might seem extreme to you, but I'm not buying it. I see nothing but bandwagoning opportunism and nihilism behind this behaviour. We live in difficult times (I am not of the school that believes the government has been evilly, ideologically brutal beyond reason) but the "protests" would have had to take on a very different character (cf. the 80s) for me to be persuaded of a more genuine social or political dimension, apart from their indication of a "society" without soul or community, where the relatively deprived grow up thinking purely in terms of entitlements and material gain.

The fascinating thing about Brendan O'Neill's piece for me was that whereas spiked usually refuses to go along with generalist portrayals of "broken Britain" and the like, here we actually see an acknowledgements that something has gone very wrong at the unprivileged levels of society.

For me this is to do with a lack of education more than anything else.

Deluded F*ck wrote:Another reason is that parents have been stripped of disciplining powers. Fuck this shit, I am definitely beating my kids.

This fucking better be tongue in cheek...

The autocue reader was annoyed he wasn't repeating the party-line.

Get him on sky news!

What a fucking disgrace that Manc tosser was just then on Sky News. Wish he'd just be fucking arrested on the spot the chavvy little shit.

He was on Newsnight last night saying the same thing although not quite so vehemently...a slightly different tone to most of the guests they had on!

Luis wrote:

Kimbo wrote:What would the army actually do, surely they wouldn't come in armed with SA80's, that would be a tad extreme.

They'd roll their tanks over them all and waste them like on GTA

Oooh, a British army riot demonstration.

http://www.boreme.com/posting.php?id=30367

shazlx wrote:

Awesome. Sorted that bitch out at the end.

Allez les rouges wrote:Sorry Bash, it might seem extreme to you, but I'm not buying it. I see nothing but bandwagoning opportunism and nihilism behind this behaviour. We live in difficult times (I am not of the school that believes the government has been evilly, ideologically brutal beyond reason) but the "protests" would have had to take on a very different character (cf. the 80s) for me to be persuaded of a more genuine social or political dimension, apart from their indication of a "society" without soul or community, where the relatively deprived grow up thinking purely in terms of entitlements and material gain.

The fascinating thing about Brendan O'Neill's piece for me was that whereas spiked usually refuses to go along with generalist portrayals of "broken Britain" and the like, here we actually see an acknowledgements that something has gone very wrong at the unprivileged levels of society.

For me this is to do with a lack of education more than anything else.

Claiming that something has gone wrong at the unprivileged levels of society; arguing that the rioting indicates a society without a soul or a sense of community spirit, which spirit has been eroded over thirty years as a direct result of the welfare state - aren't these ways of attaching a genuine social and political dimension to the rioting? I don't think events justify the conclusion the article reaches - which is that the long-term erosion of social values has been the product of the welfare state; the resulting lack of community spirit is the cause of the riots; and all other social and political factors, including capitalism, the banking crisis and cuts to services, can be dismissed. I do think that the rioting over the past couple of days has primarily involved opportunists out to break things and steal - at a point, experience showed the police incapable of enforcing the law and people acted aggressively and selfishly on this practical information. But I think that a range of factors probably impelled the violence, created an atmosphere in which people wanted to riot and felt that they could free from moral and social restraint.

Well, plainly the welfare state is far from the only factor behind why these things happen. That's not what I took out of the article, or thought it was claiming, though I can see why you interpret it that way. As I say, a lack of education is the key factor for me - others, like Shaz above, might appeal to parenting too (and why is that so much more of an issue in this generation?), or the nature of policing in this country; I guess it depends what your own hobbyhorse is.

But I have to scoff at the global economic crisis and capitalism being a genuine or remotely articulate motive for these moronic animals. Let's not give them that credit.

Allez les rouges wrote:

Deluded F*ck wrote:Another reason is that parents have been stripped of disciplining powers. Fuck this shit, I am definitely beating my kids.

This fucking better be tongue in cheek...

There's clearly a difference between discipline and abuse... these kids think they're untouchable because of this lovey-dovey approach.

Awesome!

You do know that isn't from the riots Kris? I think i had it as an avatar some years ago.

Big Fail on my part then

Allez les rouges wrote:Well, plainly the welfare state is far from the only factor behind why these things happen. That's not what I took out of the article, or thought it was claiming, though I can see why you interpret it that way. As I say, a lack of education is the key factor for me

Its more than just education. Its emotional maturity for dealing with others.

- others, like Shaz above, might appeal to parenting too (and why is that so much more of an issue in this generation?)

Its harder to parent because there's less of a nuclear family. Lots of people get around it, others don't. There's no help for those who don't.

But I have to scoff at the global economic crisis and capitalism being a genuine or remotely articulate motive for these moronic animals. Let's not give them that credit.

Animals? have you seen human history or present? They are acting very human. And, the economic structure is not an excuse, its a mirror image.

Humans often act like animals, but that doesn't mean we should categorically reduce ourselves to the order of beasts... What makes us human and not animals per se is our capability to think and act on a level higher than mere instinct, so I don't think that these rioters are acting very human at all.

Well when people believe they have nothing to lose and believe that there's no point in fearing the consequences...

shazlx wrote:

Allez les rouges wrote:Well, plainly the welfare state is far from the only factor behind why these things happen. That's not what I took out of the article, or thought it was claiming, though I can see why you interpret it that way. As I say, a lack of education is the key factor for me

Its more than just education. Its emotional maturity for dealing with others.

- others, like Shaz above, might appeal to parenting too (and why is that so much more of an issue in this generation?)

Its harder to parent because there's less of a nuclear family. Lots of people get around it, others don't. There's no help for those who don't.

But I have to scoff at the global economic crisis and capitalism being a genuine or remotely articulate motive for these moronic animals. Let's not give them that credit.

Animals? have you seen human history or present? They are acting very human. And, the economic structure is not an excuse, its a mirror image.

I must say I do enjoy the way some people extrapolate their, ah, "alternative" views on football to everything else as well.

My throwaway description wasn't really up for discussion, I find it perfectly reasonable (well said Xavier). And my point about education was in an intellectual sense, as in developing the curiosity that prevents the kind of boredom that leads to this bestial behaviour – clearly others might find other kinds of education important too; fair enough.

It should be clear that I share a lot of the views about this kind of behaviour being in keeping with a society that has nothing to offer beyond the pursuit of material gain and a soullessly prescriptive view of how to behave, but a needlessly portentous and over-analytical explanation of why these things happen will never cut it as an excuse.

This grotesque and evil behaviour as the "mirror image" of free-for all capitalism – Jesus me, I haven't time for this bullshit. It's the same false relativism and equivalence again. Welcome to the "decadent commentariat".

Bloody predictive text, I only texted a few of my mates asking if they fancied a pint.