Tottenham Hotspur 2011 / 2012

At least one person bothered to dress smart for the evening's event. Keep up the good work fellows. Pip, pip!

Kimbo wrote:

Luis wrote:

Hlebagone wrote:Fucking hell Luis, it doesn't take much to make you an extremist does it. You saying the government should have introduced marshall law after yesterdays events?

Would you be saying that if your business and home got burned down?

I would be asking where the fire brigade is.

Luis wrote:

Hlebagone wrote:

Luis wrote:

Hlebagone wrote:Fucking hell Luis, it doesn't take much to make you an extremist does it. You saying the government should have introduced marshall law after yesterdays events?

Would you be saying that if your business and home got burned down?

Are you advocating marshall law based on yesterday's events?

Clearly the measures taken didn't work today did they? The police aren't in control of the situation. Sometihng else has to be done and if that's sending in the army to put a stop to it before more damage is done then so be it.

Still don't think calling in the army is necessary and would probably lead to more deaths if not more destruction, making the situation ultimately worse.

Hlebagone wrote:

Kimbo wrote:

Luis wrote:

Hlebagone wrote:Fucking hell Luis, it doesn't take much to make you an extremist does it. You saying the government should have introduced marshall law after yesterdays events?

Would you be saying that if your business and home got burned down?

I would be asking where the fire brigade is.

Luis wrote:

Hlebagone wrote:

Luis wrote:

Hlebagone wrote:Fucking hell Luis, it doesn't take much to make you an extremist does it. You saying the government should have introduced marshall law after yesterdays events?

Would you be saying that if your business and home got burned down?

Are you advocating marshall law based on yesterday's events?

Clearly the measures taken didn't work today did they? The police aren't in control of the situation. Sometihng else has to be done and if that's sending in the army to put a stop to it before more damage is done then so be it.

Still don't think calling in the army is necessary and would probably lead to more deaths if not more destruction, making the situation ultimately worse.

What would you suggest then? Let more innocent people be hurt and lose their houses/cars/business because we aren't forceful enough?

Pray for rain, perform a rain dance, whatever. Someone on sky said a couple days of rain would put an end to it, rather pathetically he was correct.

I'm waiting Kevin.....

I'm not an extremist, but give me a machine gun and I could sort some of this out.

Rioting now being reported in Liverpool, i'm not sure looting is anything out of the ordinary there though.

You should get out there Lewis, lay the smackdown!

Just people wanting to get tv coverage. Won't somebody please think of the children?

Xavier wrote:

blutgraetsche wrote:The only building still standing is KFC.

hahaha, brilliant

The one in Waltham Cross got burnt down !


The robbed an Allied Carpets tho - anyone who wants a stash of Class A rugs just holla!

Luis wrote:

Hlebagone wrote:

Kimbo wrote:

Luis wrote:

Hlebagone wrote:Fucking hell Luis, it doesn't take much to make you an extremist does it. You saying the government should have introduced marshall law after yesterdays events?

Would you be saying that if your business and home got burned down?

I would be asking where the fire brigade is.

Luis wrote:

Hlebagone wrote:

Luis wrote:

Hlebagone wrote:Fucking hell Luis, it doesn't take much to make you an extremist does it. You saying the government should have introduced marshall law after yesterdays events?

Would you be saying that if your business and home got burned down?

Are you advocating marshall law based on yesterday's events?

Clearly the measures taken didn't work today did they? The police aren't in control of the situation. Sometihng else has to be done and if that's sending in the army to put a stop to it before more damage is done then so be it.

Still don't think calling in the army is necessary and would probably lead to more deaths if not more destruction, making the situation ultimately worse.

What would you suggest then? Let more innocent people be hurt and lose their houses/cars/business because we aren't forceful enough?

I never claimed that it was an ideal situation. Just that bringing in the military would worsen it, especially as as far as I can tell, people didnt expect there to be this level of rioting.
The simple reason that the military shouldn't be brought in is that even if they are a fairly well trained peace keeping force, it's the equivalent of killing a fly with a sledgehammer. It would hugely increase the likelihood people being killed. Even if looting/houses being burned can be covered by insurance, deaths can't. Moreover, think of the social ramifications of our own army taking shots at its own people. Then you'd know this country was fucked.

Obviously, the size of London limits what you can do. My guess is that i'd be surprised this continued tonight (obviously, this is a guess), but attempt to maximise the police force in the worst areas is the obvious thing to do.

Luis wrote:I'm waiting Kevin.....

It was 1:26 am in the morning where I live Luis. Didn't it occur to you that I might have gone to sleep, rather than wait for your response.

England - Oranje is called off cause england is in a civil war....

What a "fourth world" nation is England...

It is safer to play in Rwanda or Congo than it is in the mighty England....?



Where shall the Olympic Games be held next year? London is too dangerous so that's impossible...

England-Holland is CANCELLED!

IE Holland wont be 1st in the world tomorrow!

What a ridiculous non-country England has become! The Black Blitz is destroying it.

I also cant believe how much poverty there is in that country that so close to home. It looks like such shithole! A bit like America innit! We also have poverty and bad neighbourhoods here, but not on such a scale.

If they're not going to bring in the army, then release the animals from London Zoo and give them automatic weapons.

Or send in WWE wrestlers on steroid come-downs.

Or Boris "crazy fists" Johnson on horseback in chainmail and armed with a bow and arrow.

There are so many options, what's the problem?

Aight, back to football... I hope Spurs to sign Ruiz.. Great player and a decent person, good character!

Ricardo Jol wrote:Aight, back to football... I hope Spurs to sign Ruiz.. Great player and a decent person, good character!

Better than Suarez?

Must admit I know only a little of this guy, mostly because Costa Rica are no international powerhouse.

Glad to hear at least he is rated in Holland and we seem to be going for quality here

Noah und der Bale wrote:

Ricardo Jol wrote:Aight, back to football... I hope Spurs to sign Ruiz.. Great player and a decent person, good character!

Better than Suarez?

Must admit I know only a little of this guy, mostly because Costa Rica are no international powerhouse.

Glad to hear at least he is rated in Holland and we seem to be going for quality here

It is hard to say he'll be as good as Suarez. He is off course much less experienced. But at the moment he is the best player of the Eredivisie and much too good for this league. For him it is time to go to a better league. I hope he'll make it at Spurs

I don't see a point with Spurs signing Ruiz. He is a very good player (potentially a better version of Dembele), but he can't play as leading centre forward, he would be a very expensive back up for van der Vaart or Bale or Lennon then. He would be a much better fit for Villarreal, as they are linked with him as well.

I am a bad person and I did have to chuckle that instead of an off-topic thread we just continued on the Tottenham thread...

You do not have to be a raving right-winger to think that the police need to start adopting some French and German tactics, this simply won't cut it. We have a police force here designed to deal with petty motoring offences and pulling individuals off the street for drug offences etc, not lawlessness and violence on this scale...

Good old spiked...

London's burning: a mob made by the welfare state

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10970/

stinger wrote:I don't see a point with Spurs signing Ruiz. He is a very good player (better version of Dembele), but he can't play as leading centre forward, he would be a very expensive back up for van der Vaart or Bale or Lennon then. He would be a much better fit for Villarreal, as they are linked with him as well.

Can he not play as part of a front 2?

Don't forget - Van Der Vaart rarely lasts a full game, so a 4-4-2 aswell as a 4-5-1 variant are equally important for us given VDV is neither a central midfielder or striker and to accomodate him he plays as a kind of floating attacking CM.

We have also been linked with Llorente of Bilbao but after Saturday has gone quiet. He had a very poor game I thought, was not impressed at all, so perhaps Levy / 'Arry have cooled interest. Or perhaps Llorente wasn't overly impressed with WHL, who knows. Still, wouldn't write him off over one friendly game - he remains my personal first choice if we can get him at a reasonable price

Noah und der Bale wrote:

stinger wrote:I don't see a point with Spurs signing Ruiz. He is a very good player (better version of Dembele), but he can't play as leading centre forward, he would be a very expensive back up for van der Vaart or Bale or Lennon then. He would be a much better fit for Villarreal, as they are linked with him as well.

Can he not play as part of a front 2?

Don't forget - Van Der Vaart rarely lasts a full game, so a 4-4-2 aswell as a 4-5-1 variant are equally important for us given VDV is neither a central midfielder or striker and to accomodate him he plays as a kind of floating attacking CM.

We have also been linked with Llorente of Bilbao but after Saturday has gone quiet. He had a very poor game I thought, was not impressed at all, so perhaps Levy / 'Arry have cooled interest. Or perhaps Llorente wasn't overly impressed with WHL, who knows. Still, wouldn't write him off over one friendly game - he remains my personal first choice if we can get him at a reasonable price

Ruiz definitely can play as a second striker n 4-4-2, just like Dembele. But I think limiting him to games when van der Vaart would be injured would make no sense and there would be plenty of games, when IMO Ruiz wouldn't be able to play as a winger (mostly because of defensive duties).)

Regarding Llorente - I actually think he was decent, Bilbao was playing quite different football comparing to previous years and he is still adjusting (they rarely used him in the past as a player holding the ball and passing for advancing wingers, usually he was passing it back for AM or CMs), he did well against Dawson when playing with back to the goal, show decent awareness. He would do very well in Premier League IMO, but make no mistake - price would be very high (30m euro at least). Bilbao have new president and new coach, plus they are in good financial shape (Basque region is doing well financially and even their basketball club is flexing muscles on the market).

Allez les rouges wrote:I am a bad person and I did have to chuckle that instead of an off-topic thread we just continued on the Tottenham thread...

You do not have to be a raving right-winger to think that the police need to start adopting some French and German tactics, this simply won't cut it. We have a police force here designed to deal with petty motoring offences and pulling individuals off the street for drug offences etc, not lawlessness and violence on this scale...

Good old spiked...

London's burning: a mob made by the welfare state

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10970/

I know, Allez, that you like Spiked not because you agree with the majority of their pieces, but because you appreciate that they offer often a boldly different perspective on various issues; and thanks for posting the article, especially since I've read today a few bits linking the rioting to the welfare state, but nothing as extended as this, more snippets on how the rioting might impact the welfare state and its provisions than suggestions the welfare state is its root cause.

Certainly, the rioters have shown a disregard for their communities and I agree that at least since Saturday, the mode of the riots has been nihilism, exhibiting wanton destruction and theft rather than the desire to make any coherent political point. But if a lack of community spirit allows this behavior to exist and persist, I'm not sure that the 'spreading tentacles' of the welfare state over the last thirty years constitute the sole or dominant cause of the lack of strong community sense, or that a lack of community spirit impels people to violence - as though, the bonds of local community having disintegrated over thirty years, people are now waiting for some pretence upon which they can turn to looting and vandalism. Some of the things which the article essentially dismisses seem to me more likely impulses to the violence and they're also things which affect the relationship people have with their local and their wider communities: the sort of unhinged capitalism which saw the collapse of the financial markets, for instance, and I suppose also that one Currys is the same as another (and generally, do rioters and thieves tend to travel before embarking upon their activities?). As a side point, perhaps a strong case can be made that the welfare state over a period has led to a decline in social solidarity, but is the flaw in the scope of the provisions afforded, or in the way welfare is provided to people? To me, capitalism, the banking crisis, the NOTW affair which has undermined senior politicians and police officers, and a general susceptibility to selfish and violent behaviour have all played roles in the rioting.

Allez les rouges wrote:I am a bad person and I did have to chuckle that instead of an off-topic thread we just continued on the Tottenham thread...

You do not have to be a raving right-winger to think that the police need to start adopting some French and German tactics, this simply won't cut it. We have a police force here designed to deal with petty motoring offences and pulling individuals off the street for drug offences etc, not lawlessness and violence on this scale...

Good old spiked...

London's burning: a mob made by the welfare state

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10970/

French youth are probably the most alienated in Europe though. There's a huge social chasm between the youth and the police. Such tactics might be useful whilst the riots are ongoing, but now they serve no point apart from to further divide a divided society.

They are even demolishing their own food suppliers

Allez les rouges wrote:I am a bad person and I did have to chuckle that instead of an off-topic thread we just continued on the Tottenham thread...

You do not have to be a raving right-winger to think that the police need to start adopting some French and German tactics, this simply won't cut it. We have a police force here designed to deal with petty motoring offences and pulling individuals off the street for drug offences etc, not lawlessness and violence on this scale...

Good old spiked...

London's burning: a mob made by the welfare state

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10970/

I was happy for it to continue as this thread has never been more popular

Bashmachkin wrote:

Allez les rouges wrote:I am a bad person and I did have to chuckle that instead of an off-topic thread we just continued on the Tottenham thread...

You do not have to be a raving right-winger to think that the police need to start adopting some French and German tactics, this simply won't cut it. We have a police force here designed to deal with petty motoring offences and pulling individuals off the street for drug offences etc, not lawlessness and violence on this scale...

Good old spiked...

London's burning: a mob made by the welfare state

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10970/

I know, Allez, that you like Spiked not because you agree with the majority of their pieces, but because you appreciate that they offer often a boldly different perspective on various issues; and thanks for posting the article, especially since I've read today a few bits linking the rioting to the welfare state, but nothing as extended as this, more snippets on how the rioting might impact the welfare state and its provisions than suggestions the welfare state is its root cause.

Certainly, the rioters have shown a disregard for their communities and I agree that at least since Saturday, the mode of the riots has been nihilism, exhibiting wanton destruction and theft rather than the desire to make any coherent political point. But if a lack of community spirit allows this behavior to exist and persist, I'm not sure that the 'spreading tentacles' of the welfare state over the last thirty years constitute the sole or dominant cause of the lack of strong community sense, or that a lack of community spirit impels people to violence - as though, the bonds of local community having disintegrated over thirty years, people are now waiting for some pretence upon which they can turn to looting and vandalism. Some of the things which the article essentially dismisses seem to me more likely impulses to the violence and they're also things which affect the relationship people have with their local and their wider communities: the sort of unhinged capitalism which saw the collapse of the financial markets, for instance, and I suppose also that one Currys is the same as another (and generally, do rioters and thieves tend to travel before embarking upon their activities?). As a side point, perhaps a strong case can be made that the welfare state over a period has led to a decline in social solidarity, but is the flaw in the scope of the provisions afforded, or in the way welfare is provided to people? To me, capitalism, the banking crisis, the NOTW affair which has undermined senior politicians and police officers, and a general susceptibility to selfish and violent behaviour have all played roles in the rioting.

Don't have time to respond at greater length right now Bash but I would suggest the point is essentially that attributing to the rioters (even that term seems excessively complimentary to me, compared to the mindlessness and aimlessness suggested by the German "randalieren") some kind of high-minded grievance about "capitalism, the banking crisis [and] the NOTW affair which has undermined senior politicians and police officers" is entirely misplaced and profoundly undeserved.

What you have to understand is that spiked's point about what it calls in general terms "the welfare state" in fact refers to something far broader, viz. the way government has over recent decades, in the absence of providing any real vision for society, merely offered an increasingly nannying and lecturing attitude to its populace at just the time when more and more people are reliant on its benefits and thus also suffocatingly prescriptive view of health, education, upbringing and the rest.

It's the nannying, infantilizing approach coupled to the creeping culture of dependency and lack of responsibilty for oneself and others that creates this soulless void and sense of entitlement, in the absence of any community spirit or society. Thatcher was right. "Ask not...", it ain't.

I don't mean to suggest that the majority or even a number of the rioters are acting motivated directly by things like the banking crisis and the NOTW affair; don't mean to say that I feel the rioters are acting to protest in some way about these things or that they'd cite grievances in these areas as reasons for their behaviour. I don't think there is anything high-minded about the rioting (perhaps 'vandalism' better suits?). But I think that the recession, the government's response to the recession, and the various debates that have been had by politicians and newspapers regarding those responsible for it, have probably fed into a very general sense of injustice in many people; I'd guess that a broad result of the NOTW affair thus far has been a loss of respect for the police; and together these things encourage a sort of anarchist impulse to act recklessly, violently, selfishly, as if in the face of all authority.

In this same way, I can accept that another factor in the rioting is the lack of strong communities and community spirit, and that at least the manner of the welfare state over the past however many years has worked to erode strong communities and, more, individual resourcefulness. I see the absence of community spirit playing a part; but I don't see it as the only or as the principle cause of the rioting, and I don't see the welfare state alone as having resulted in its loss. The article to me does suggest that an absence of community spirit, caused by the welfare state, is predominantly if not solely responsible for the rioting, and I think that argument is as narrow and as prescriptive as the arguments it elsewhere criticises.

I love how grown men are crying our for the military to come in or the police to be merciful because this countries gone soft. Er ever thought it might help if you, 20/30 somethings get out and group together to deal with the rioters and looters yourself instead of waiting for the corrupt incompetent police? If the countries gone soft, its because you're the soft ones. These are only kids. 100 kids vs 300 full adult men. These kid will go crying home to their mummies.

One of the worst aspects of current British culture and probably influenced these riots is that we expect someone else to do that something because we've paid our taxes.

Me myself, I'm not that bothered about the riots. The Met police ARE c**ts. And the negligence to young people by the government wasn't just effecting the scummy kids. It meant the good kids couldn't go out and play football or hang out with their mates without the risk of fights or muggings.

Hopefully these riots and looting will be a catalyst for change. Both from the authorities and communities on how they deal with rowdy kids. Maybe we might get an overall net benefit.

Extremely bad idea to get the Army in. There will be bloodshed if they get deployed.