Real Madrid CF 2013/14

TM wrote:

blutgraetsche wrote:Özil is an idiot for staying in Madrid. How many times do Madrid have to be knocked out by their Kryptonite for him to realise that he should better move back to the fatherland?

Theres two ways to look at it really: Ozil can stay and prove his quality or pack up and leave. To his credit he wants to prove his quality and has never really bitched in the media (like other players).

During a season Ozil will have spells of brilliance since but consistency throughout an entire season hasn't been there. Unfortunately for him it appears he will be pushed out onto the left wing under Carlo and that isn't his natural position.

With regards to moving back to Germany, who would he go back to? I can't see Bayern signing him with the amount of midfielders they already have, Weder Bremen aren't doing too well, that only really leaves Borussia Dortmund.

I'm not loyal on principle to anyone but Ozil should get this season and if he isn't up to scratch then hopefully Isco is. Either way I'm not to bothered because I doubt both of them will disappoint.

blutgraetsche wrote:Yeah, pretty much and yes again, that's a good thing.

Mesut would fare well against the Barry, Harry and Jerry I think. But I don't want him playing there, as it means regressing instead of stagnating.

Do you think Dortmund would consider an Ozil for Reus swap deal?

(Side note: Germany have so many quality midfielders its just ridiculous. WC semi final should be a minimum next year).

@Super Mourinho

I agree with you Ozil should stay for one more season at the minimum.

blutgraetsche wrote:Yeah, pretty much and yes again, that's a good thing.

Mesut would fare well against the Barry, Harry and Jerry I think. But I don't want him playing there, as it means regressing instead of stagnating.

I was thinking the same thing about how Balotelli's career had been ruined playing in England as he knocked Germany out of the Euros. The arrogance is astonishing

Fear not, no chance of him playing in England anytime soon, only Man City or Chelsea could realistically afford him, both rather stockpiled in attacking MFs. Man United could do with a player like Ozil, but they seem to have an aversion to actually buying creative midfielders.

Give me one example of a German player improving in England Bernd. Just one.

TM wrote:
Do you think Dortmund would consider an Ozil for Reus swap deal?

(Side note: Germany have so many quality midfielders its just ridiculous. WC semi final should be a minimum next year).

Reus will stay loyal to BVB. That lad is a rarity these days. Born and bred in Dortmund btw., despite his career kicking off in Gladbach.

Dortmund wouldn't consider a swap because a) both are quite different players and b) Özil is used to Real Madrid wages, so he's basically spoiled and incompatible to any 'normal' club outside the super rich.

Özil could learn a thing or two about consistency from Reus.

blutgraetsche wrote:Give me one example of a German player improving in England Bernd. Just one.

German players? Why focus on German players exactly? There are plenty of examples of players coming from abroad who have improved in England. The issue is probably more along the lines that the handful of German players in recent years who have come to England just haven't actually been all that good. Clearly you're producing better players these days so that trend would change.

But, just for giggles let's give this a bash. I don't think anyone can claim Jurgen Klinsmann's career regressed at Spurs. Ballack perhaps wasn't a barnstorming success, but Otto was still clambering for his inclusion in the German team whilst he was at Chelsea, nothing to suggest he regressed.

Hitzlsperger's career took an upshot when he joined Villa, hardly a failure for him moving here

Holtby's career has barely begun, so impossible to write him off just yet. Marin was a fool joining Chelsea, that's his fault. Likewise Schurle - neither of them are ever going to start over Hazard/Mata/Oscar.

If Ozil were to make the intellgent choice for footballing reasons, going to the right club over choosing money (the issue with Ballack and co. when joining the Chavs), I see no reason he couldn't be a success in England like Mata, Cazorla, Oscar, Modric, Silva, Coutinho, Fabregas, Ronaldo, Berbatov and the like have been.

Bale not for sale. I am naively hoping its true   

German players because I was precisely referring to a German player named Mesut Özil. Plus, I don't really care that much about the development of foreign ones unless they have been nurtured at my own club (or there is some other kind of 'emotional bond').

None of the examples you gave are really valid because neither of those players improved, that was my question. Klinsmann didn't improve, he had his best years elsewhere (he even did better at Bayern afterwards despite the chaos at the club back then, with him and Matthäus at the core of it), Ballack didn't improve, Hitzlsperger didn't improve (he won the league with Stuttgart FFS, later became their captain even). It's still too early to tell about Hotlby, Marin and Schürrle, but Hotlby and Schürrle at least had some promising careers in Germany so far which they first have to replicate in England before one can say that they haven't regressed at least.

That's why I rather see German players move elsewhere if they go abroad and I really don't think that the experience so far proves me wrong, on the contrary. Considering the fact that the EPL was the strongest European league for most of the late noughties, that's particularly disappointing, e.g. compared to the Serie A in the 90s when German players moved there and actually improved their all-round game, even those who had had a successful career in Germany already. Not all of them, sure, but quite a few.

Apparently the €100mil bid is really only €20m a year over 5 years!

GTFO with that.

That's rather typical for southern European clubs AFAIK. If I'm not mistaken, Italian clubs used to split transfer fees like that in the past also.

Don't know about England, but over here, the standard procedure is to pay the whole sum, with bonuses later on depending on their criteria.

blutgraetsche wrote: Hitzlsperger didn't improve (he won the league with Stuttgart FFS, later became their captain even).

But that was after spending 5 years in PL. clearly the skills he learned at Villa helped him succeed at Stuttgart

fact is there just haven't been many top German players in PL, so the sample too small enough to mean much. most of the ones that have moved to PL have been older, so chances of improving minimal. it's only really recently with Boateng, Holtby, Marin, Schurrle that clubs starting to sign a few younger talents, though mostly these still of the 2nd/3rd tier in terms of German national team & none of them had more than a season yet.

That's why I rather see German players move elsewhere if they go abroad and I really don't think that the experience so far proves me wrong, on the contrary. Considering the fact that the EPL was the strongest European league for most of the late noughties, that's particularly disappointing, e.g. compared to the Serie A in the 90s when German players moved there and actually improved their all-round game, even those who had had a successful career in Germany already. Not all of them, sure, but quite a few.

Serie A in the 90s signed first choice players like Moller, Matthaus, Kohler, Häßler. Klinsmann the only one I can think of who came to England when first choice international & still in prime.

also you gotta consider who they play for. Man Utd never signed any Germans, Arsenal had Lehmann & recently got Mertesacker & Podolski but no-one before that, Chelsea had Ballack & recently got Marin/Schurrle, Man City had Boateng briefly & that's it since they've been a force, Liverpool had the odd 2nd tier player like Hamann & Babbel.

I think it's also fair to say that a fair chunk of the peak of PL in the 00s also coincides with when Germany national team was at its weakest for a long time - hence likes of Chelsea & Man Utd didn't go out signing Germans. Serie A was at peak when Germany were winning WC & Euros & so their top sides were signing German players.

Sure, the quality of the players that moved to the Serie A in the 90s was higher. But does that really matter in this context? Isn't it even more difficult to improve a player who has reached a very high level already? Take Matthäus, for example. He was a huge player in Germany already, moved to Inter and actually made a step forward, became the first FiFA WPOTY and lead Germany to the WC title in 1990. The same applies to a number of the other players you mentioned.

I give you that there haven't been many Germans playing in England. But the same more or less applies to all other leagues, as Germans tend to be reluctant to move abroad. Back in the days, it could even cost you the NT career. But with the exception of the EPL, there are examples for great successes in the other big European leagues. Not just the already mentioned Italian ones, but in Spain, too, where someone like Schuster had a great career, for example. He is one of the very few players to be listed in the all time greats list of both Real Madrid and Barcelona.

It gets even more interesting if you consider how someone like Keegan became a great success in Germany and won the Ballon D'or twice playing for Hamburg (and not for Liverpool btw.). But the other way around? Never happened.

well, I guess the question would be who are the Germans who moved to England who you think should have improved? I mean I looked at a list of players on wiki & most of the recognisable names moved to England towards end of career.

Spoiler:

It's not so much that there hasn't be an equivalent of Schuster (whose probably the only big example in La Liga) or the Serie A examples but that there hasn't even been potential equivalents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bert_Trautmann (who died a few weeks ago) is maybe the most successful German in English football, but wasn't internationally recognised.

Not all of them did though, far from it. Take Jerome Boateng, for instance. Fringe player in Manchester at best, yet managed to become a starter (and play a great season to boot) in the treble winning Bayern side, a bigger and far more successful club. Or the already mentioned Klinsmann, who moved to Bayern and won the UEFA Cup and 1996 Euros with Germany as their captain.

There is a fair share of crap players in that list, sure, but isn't it striking that you really can't say about any of them that they had their best years in England? And that despite the rather similar Northern European cultural environment, at least more similar than southern Europe?

My take on it is that the football tradition is less compatible, means that Germans tend to do better on the continent due to strong similarities in the football tradition, despite cultural differences.

P.S.: Trautmann I give you, that's probably the only real exception. But that was a lot due to the exceptional times he played in.

Real Madrid insanity, part 2...

According to Marca, Ronaldo has finally signed a contract extension (now ends in 2018). He'll now earn more than Messi, a staggering sum of €17m a year....after tax!

http://sportbild.bild.de/SPORT/fussball/international/2013/08/05/cristiano-ronaldo/vertrag-bei-real-madrid-verlaengert.html

 

Seriously? Just speechless.

well yeah Klinsmann is the big exception - he's really the only example of a peak first-choice German international moving to England. It wasn't his most successful spell for trophies 'cause he went to Spurs who were crap for most of the 90s, but he still had a very successful spell in England, can hardly be used as a mark against the league.

Over 90% of that list would come under categories "didn't achieve much in England, or anywhere else" or "came to England later in their career when they past their peak", so I don't think its at all striking that none had their best years in England (actually Uwe Rosler had his best years in England, as has Huth ).

You say Boateng "for instance" as if there's lots of other examples when he's pretty much the only one since Klinsmann who's highly rated and came to England at prime age (up until Marin, Schurrle, Holtby who are all very recent). Extrapolating a trend from his one underwhelming season at Man City is pretty thin.

Overall I think plenty of German players could have been (and yet could be) successful in England. I'd say the reason there hasn't been many examples are:
-in mid 70s-early 80s when English football was v.strong, Bundesliga was also at peak so few Germans would play abroad
-in late 80s-mid 90s when German national team was v.strong, Serie A was easily the best league & English football was at a trough with the European ban. the top German players who went abroad went to Italy, Klinsmann the only one who came to England & was a success in a short stay.
-in the 00s, when PL was strongest league, German football was at a low. The top few players stay at Bayern, otherwise not a great deal of talent & not many came to England, certainly not the Champions League clubs (only Ballack and Lehmann who both did fine but were in later stages of career).
-the 2010s there's now a lot of German talent, Bundesliga is much stronger again so top players happy to stay there, while a few of the 2nd tier are coming to England (Schurrle, Marin, Holtby). Early days for seeing how they do, but I dare say a few more will follow as long as English clubs have money to splash.

Well argued, your points make quite a bit of sense. I guess I have to wait and see how the new generation fares before making such a sweeping judgement. It's more of a feeling than a rational reasoning I guess.

One thing is for sure though: The fans in England are considerably better and less fickle than their Southern European counterparts, especially those supporting the big two Spanish clubs...

Is this a bit like the Brazilians in England argument? Because that weakens almost by the year.

It seems to me like German players are often popular with the fans over here - thinking of Riether (and previously Volz) in particular as well as Der Hammer. The reputation is for producing hardworking pros like Freund and Hamann, and together with a tendency to speak good English there doesn't seem any great reason for Germans to adapt badly (is German football more "continental" than French or East European or Spanish? those guys seem to do OK in the Premiership).

And in the interest of throwing names out there Tremmel last season and lapsed German Kevin Boateng have both impressed recently.

@Blut, I've given it some thought and I have an answer for you...

DIDI FUCKING HAMANN!

By the way, Klinsmann scored a shitload of goals for 2 crappy Spurs sides during the 90s. He might have won more at Bayern after his first stint, but scoring regularly at a much poorer team can hardly be claimed to be a regression.

By the way, clever way of indirectly getting me and Debbie illustrating Germans who have excelled in England. Clever. Very clever, you're a marketing genius!

Only an Englishmen would think about the marketing aspect of it. Wheeler dealer DNA...

Debbie! are you watching the Real Madrid - Chelsea 'friendly'?  

It looks like a CL semifinal second leg game, FFS! 

In case you're missing this instant classic: Marcelo scores and tells Mourinho "fuck you!" No hype! Mourinho is incandescent with rage but tries to remain cool on the sidelines. Ramires scores the tying goal and Mourinho says "fuck you" to Cristiano. Then Cristiano scores from a free kick, looks towards Mourinho and points to his heart as if saying "I'm for Real Madrid, this is my team!", Mourinho looks totally disgusted with a expression in his face like "get the fuck out of here!" 

Lampard can't pass for shite and resorts to whack anyone with a white shirt. Pepe straightens Lampard's ass in retaliation and then Terry runs to defend Lampard; Pepe stands his ground and Marcelo shoves Terry. Arbeloa whacks Lampard for constant fouling later on in the game.

It's 2-1 Real Madrid winning and Mourinho walks toward the dressing room pointing to the Chelsea logo while looking at Cristiano. 

The game's on ESPN Deportes.  

Di Canio!!!!! are you watching this AWESOME (NOT FRIENDLY) GAME! 

Cristiano scores the third goal for Madrid and does a Matador pose while looking at Mourinho. Jose is fucking furious and screams at Terry "play some fucking defense damn it!" 

Then Mourinho tells Cahill something. A few minutes later Cahill delivers a "clean as a whistle" 'tackle' on Cristiano. 

So much animosity and hatred in this world, FFS!   

WOW! some Real Madrid fan wearing a Cristiano shirt runs to the field towards Cristiano himself, points to his heart gets on his knees and tells Cristiano "I'm also Real Madrid" then points towards Mourinho and said something else to Cristiano (I couldn't make what he said  ). Then Cristiano tells the fan to get up and hugs him while telling security it's OK.

The stadium gives a standing ovation to Cristiano. WHAT. A. GAME! 

It's still Real Madrid 3 - 1 Chelsea

72nd minute

Ahem.....PROGRESS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Highlights for those who missed it. Jose was furious.


R.Madrid - Chelsea footyroom.com by footyroom

Florentino: "Paying €100m for somebody seems like a lot to me."

"Paying 100million for somebody we don't actually need seems a lot to me".

Well done Florentino. So you're finally seeing sense, but not before creating an enormous cluster fuck whirlwind this end. Apparently Levy didn't turn up in Miami to meet with him as agreed. So much for the business partnership

When was Mourinho furious in that video?

Isco Benny wrote:"Paying 100million for somebody we don't actually need seems a lot to me".

Well done Florentino. So you're finally seeing sense, but not before creating an enormous cluster fuck whirlwind this end. Apparently Levy didn't turn up in Miami to meet with him as agreed. So much for the business partnership

Sure but that only affects Levy and Tottenham. 

Yeah, a club that Madrid were supposed to be all pally with after signing that partnership last year. Do you think people outside of Madrid are looking on thinking "wow, now there's a super rich club behaving with dignity and respect"...? Nah, they're thinking Madrid once again playing dirty and believing they can do whatever the fuck they want. Shame they fucked with the wrong Jew. Florentino got Levy'd, and I know friends of mine who aren't Spurs fans think it's deservedly hilarious

Puro wrote:Debbie! are you watching the Real Madrid - Chelsea 'friendly'?  

It looks like a CL semifinal second leg game, FFS! 

In case you're missing this instant classic: Marcelo scores and tells Mourinho "fuck you!" No hype! Mourinho is incandescent with rage but tries to remain cool on the sidelines. Ramires scores the tying goal and Mourinho says "fuck you" to Cristiano. Then Cristiano scores from a free kick, looks towards Mourinho and points to his heart as if saying "I'm for Real Madrid, this is my team!", Mourinho looks totally disgusted with a expression in his face like "get the fuck out of here!" 

Lampard can't pass for shite and resorts to whack anyone with a white shirt. Pepe straightens Lampard's ass in retaliation and then Terry runs to defend Lampard; Pepe stands his ground and Marcelo shoves Terry. Arbeloa whacks Lampard for constant fouling later on in the game.

It's 2-1 Real Madrid winning and Mourinho walks toward the dressing room pointing to the Chelsea logo while looking at Cristiano. 

The game's on ESPN Deportes.  

Puro wrote:Di Canio!!!!! are you watching this AWESOME (NOT FRIENDLY) GAME! 

Cristiano scores the third goal for Madrid and does a Matador pose while looking at Mourinho. Jose is fucking furious and screams at Terry "play some fucking defense damn it!" 

Then Mourinho tells Cahill something. A few minutes later Cahill delivers a "clean as a whistle" 'tackle' on Cristiano. 

So much animosity and hatred in this world, FFS!   

Puro wrote:WOW! some Real Madrid fan wearing a Cristiano shirt runs to the field towards Cristiano himself, points to his heart gets on his knees and tells Cristiano "I'm also Real Madrid" then points towards Mourinho and said something else to Cristiano (I couldn't make what he said  ). Then Cristiano tells the fan to get up and hugs him while telling security it's OK.

The stadium gives a standing ovation to Cristiano. WHAT. A. GAME! 

It's still Real Madrid 3 - 1 Chelsea

72nd minute

Jaime wrote:Highlights for those who missed it. Jose was furious.


R.Madrid - Chelsea footyroom.com by footyroom

 

the Puro version doesn't quite match up with the video evidence