U21 FINAL Holland v Serbia 23/6 19.45 BST / 20.45 CET

Just gor back from a weekend away, wanted to congratulate our Dutch brothers on victory. It appears the Serbian contingent have gone very very quiet!

Glad that the only side who managed to put up any type of real fight against the Champs was England.

Im presuming Otto is working on an essay as we speak belittling the achievements of team Oranje. Awaiting his wise words with baited breath, until then, if England arent gonna be champs- which they werent, again! - then at least it was the Dutch. Amen

Otto has already posted a couple of his essays, Pele.

Were did you go for the weekend?

Before it turns into politics, what is wrong with the Dutch flag? Suriname got independent way before those kids were born, so why waving the flag of a country were they not even born!

Its a privilege to be Dutch, not a burden.

DD wrote:Otto has already posted a couple of his essays, Pele.

Were did you go for the weekend?

So Ive missed Otto's posts? Booo! Let me guess- the general gist being that the tournament is unimportant, Oranje/English 3 lambs were unimpressive, Germany are the finest group of young talents in the World, didnt play this year in order to give the rest a chance etc etc. Am i warm?

Was away in Budapest. Great time, back last night to the pouring rain. In June! Only in England

$h!t weather here as well. We had rain for at least a week now.

Fey wrote:$h!t weather here as well. We had rain for at least a week now.

I thought global warming had properly kicked in. Nothing warm about the weather at the moment- torrential non stop rain for days, streets flooded. Plus theres no football on, no big sports event this summer to look forward to. Bloody depressing

Fey wrote:Before it turns into politics, what is wrong with the Dutch flag? Suriname got independent way before those kids were born, so why waving the flag of a country were they not even born!

Its a privilege to be Dutch, not a burden.

Is it a burden to be a Surinam descendent? In the Netherlands it is.

They are already playing for Oranje. It therefore is a privilege for them, and they were eligible becasue they are Dutch.

You say Surinam got independent before they were born, true. But their parents (and/or grandparents) - that is close family - are from the Surinam kolony. But those same parents are and have been constantly reminded that they are Surinam (descendent) by the Dutch people.

The Dutch can remind them whenever they want, but if they show even a hint of being proud of their Surinam heritage, they are castigated as not wanting to assimilate (which btw, is also BS) into the Dutch culture.
See the circle? the question is, do yuo want to break it or do you want to make money of it (politicians)?

And whether you like it or not, Surinam will always stay a kolony of the Netherlands. Just because you're done raping it for your own gain doesn't mean that once its discarded, you wash your hands.
Indonesia also stays as a former Dutch kolony (they're more independent however, as they had their own ancient culture and natives and have been independent longer, unlike Surinam).

I am Mum-Ra wrote:

Fey wrote:$h!t weather here as well. We had rain for at least a week now.

I thought global warming had properly kicked in. Nothing warm about the weather at the moment- torrential non stop rain for days, streets flooded. Plus theres no football on, no big sports event this summer to look forward to. Bloody depressing

Wimbledon...if you are into it. The Tour de France is always my favorite sportevent if there is not a major football tournement.

Ah looking up your roots, eh Pele.
Only a weekend though? That's very short.
Its been awful weather here for too.

Copa America for football lovers. (if you can get it)

Fey wrote:Before it turns into politics, what is wrong with the Dutch flag? Suriname got independent way before those kids were born, so why waving the flag of a country were they not even born!

Its a privilege to be Dutch, not a burden.

There's nothing wrong with the Dutch flag. But as long as Dutch don't call them (the people with ancestors from Surinam) Dutch, it will occasionally happen. If the branding of people by right wing politicans/people stops, you wouldn't see it.

By the way most Dutchmen with ancestors from Surinam are very pro-Dutch. My grandma in law has a huge pic of our previous queen in her living room. My mother in law knows more 'couplets' of our national anthem than 99,99% of 'real' Dutchies.

jonathan de guzman wrote:By the way most Dutchmen with ancestors from Surinam are very pro-Dutch. My grandma in law has a huge pic of our previous queen in her living room. My mother in law knows more 'couplets' of our national anthem than 99,99% of 'real' Dutchies.

Absolutely true.
Nearly all I know also have pics of Beatrix with Claus in their living room too. And know the Wilhelmus.

jonathan de guzman wrote:

Fey wrote:Before it turns into politics, what is wrong with the Dutch flag? Suriname got independent way before those kids were born, so why waving the flag of a country were they not even born!

Its a privilege to be Dutch, not a burden.

There's nothing wrong with the Dutch flag. But as long as Dutch don't call them (the people with ancestors from Surinam) Dutch, it will occasionally happen. If the branding of people by right wing politicans/people stops, you wouldn't see it.

bullshit! Leo! Blame politics for it! Most of them don't want to sing the national anthem and wave surinam flags because they are affraid their backyard will blame them for taking a piss of their roots!

That's the case not the other way around!

We'll never agree on this Ricardo.

But you've got to admit that 3rd genreration immigrants are still branded allochtoon by most people. Wilders & other right wing politicans allways call them Surinamese (when they do something wrong, but when they do something right they're suddenly Dutch). Why are they upset when they show a that flag?

I know a lot of Dutchmen with Surinamese ancestors. I know what I'm talking about. Racism from a.o. Wilders doesn't lead to integration, it leads to things like this. There's nothing constructive about people like that, they want to set up people against eachother, like Bin Laden, like Bush.

i agree with you, it is true many Dutch origins find it difficult to see Surinamese Dutch as "real" dutch! But the other way around, it is also because they act different... It is both ways!

The reason why stong independent and emancipated women like Ayaan Hirshi Ali are hated by many Surinamese Dutch because she doesn't think "black" is rediculous. It seems to be that being "black" isn't a "colour" but rather a life style...!

I don't care they wave Surinamese flags but they are in the first place Dutch! I hoped to see many blacks singing with Vlaar, Maduro and Drenthe the national anthem... But unfortunately they didn't....

I also hoped to see more blacks in the crowd. It was a 95% white audiance while 80% of the players were black! Why? Price tickets are too expensive? Groningen, Nijmegen, Arnhem and Heerenveen are for 95% white Dutch origin? When I look at the Ajax or Feyenoord crowd I also see mainly white supporters and hardly any blacks...

While when the Suriprofs are playing they are suddenly there from all over the country...!

The PVDA (Not to mention Groen Links and D66) is still larger than Wilders and they are the party for the allochtonen they always pamper the Dutchies with a different background and still people blame it on Wilders....

@Ricardo
Hardly any player of our national teams sign the national anthem no matter where their ancestors where from.

Think in 1988 we had 1 player signing along.

yes but we are now living in a different, multi ethnical country.... National symbols are more important than it was in 1988

Ricardo Jol wrote:yes but we are now living in a different, multi ethnical country.... National symbols are more important than it was in 1988

so why do you single out the black guys & don't you complain about RVP, VDV, etc not signing along. Pay attention next match.

as well! I liked the idea of Van gaal to practise on the anthem! a pity he had to be sacked!

Last year it was even more rediculous! it was half black half white. All the whites sang but the blacks kept their mouth shut...!

BTW it is more a hope to see the integration process improve than I hate some one who doesn't sing the anthem! Also because national symbols and identity are very important nowadays IMO!

Ricardo Jol wrote:as well! I liked the idea of Van gaal to practise on the anthem! a pity he had to be sacked!

Last year it was even more rediculous! it was half black half white. All the whites sang but the blacks kept their mouth shut...!

BTW it is more a hope to see the integration process improve than I hate some one who doesn't sing the anthem! Also because national symbols and identity are very important nowadays IMO!

Can't see why they would be more important than 10 years ago.

What's important in Holland at the moment is that people get judged on how they behave not on where there ancestors were from.

You know what politicians like Wilders, Verdonk a.o. have caused. My missus get insulted much more just for her color of her skin. This doesn't lead to integration, this makes a lot of people feel they will not get a chance to integrate (or be accepted) and they turn inside in their own group.

yes that's important indeed! Many Dutch -Antillians, -Surinamers, -Moroccans, -Turkisch can also do a lot about it to let that happen!

Ricardo Jol wrote:yes that's important indeed! Many Dutch -Antillians, -Surinamers, -Moroccans, -Turkisch can also do a lot about it to let that happen!

Of course everybody should do what they should do same goes for local dutchies.


(I echo this because I put it too late in my previous post)

You know what politicians like Wilders, Verdonk a.o. have caused. My missus get insulted much more just for her color of her skin. This doesn't lead to integration, this makes a lot of people feel they will not get a chance to integrate (or be accepted) and they turn inside in their own group.

jonathan de guzman wrote:

Ricardo Jol wrote:yes that's important indeed! Many Dutch -Antillians, -Surinamers, -Moroccans, -Turkisch can also do a lot about it to let that happen!

Of course everybody should do what they should do same goes for local dutchies.

But that's the thing, when somebody has a small dutch flag on his bag he is considered racist. I don't see anything wrong with that (if it stays with that)

Since 1888 wrote:

jonathan de guzman wrote:

Ricardo Jol wrote:yes that's important indeed! Many Dutch -Antillians, -Surinamers, -Moroccans, -Turkisch can also do a lot about it to let that happen!

Of course everybody should do what they should do same goes for local dutchies.

But that's the thing, when somebody has a small dutch flag on his bag he is considered racist. I don't see anything wrong with that (if it stays with that)

I don't see anything wrong with that either (having a small Dutch flag or even a big one).

But my experience is that a lot of those people have a 2 digit IQ and are the people who just insult people for the way they look. If they do that they're racist.

If they just show the flag I've no problem with it.

I know what you mean, I don't know the person and he probably is just a c**t but with the act itself there's nothing wrong.

Look, nobody said integration was easy. There are a lot of morons in both dutch and allochtoon groups who mess up for the others. The problem with both is that neither are really making that much effort do make it better.

It is terrible people do things like that but the way eras changed over the last 10 years is more the real propblem for that than a Wilders or Verdonk!

It will only get worse! Even the 3th generation dont consider themselves Dutch. You can say alot of things about the USA, but at least they all consider themself an American first. This creates unity in a society, which we clearly lack and will never achieve.

What I've noticed it that 2nd/ 3rd generation immigrants who felt 100% Dutch and were fully integrated, feel less Dutch anymore because of politicians branding entire groups and the less smart part of their following going further and insult them just for the way they look.

Ricardo Jol wrote:It is terrible people do things like that but the way eras changed over the last 10 years is more the real propblem for that than a Wilders or Verdonk!

They are an integral part of the situation getting worse.

There are merchants in hate on both sides. They fuel eachother.

Mohammed B leads to more Wilders's
Wilders leads to more Mohammed B's.

Extremism on 1 side always fuels extremism on the other side. was the same pre WW2 with communism and fascism.

I don't see any problems with Verdonk.. Haven't heard much strange things from her besides many others tried to score on her back to black mail her...

But then I rather see more openess than sneaky invisible racism...

And voila!
http://www.telesport.nl/voetbal/article1799089.ece

plus the comments.

Demagogues at work.

Sad day alround...