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Wiese is better than Adler. 
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Best team in the world - Goalkeeper
Poll
Who is the current best Goalkeeper in the world?
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Total Votes: 40
Poll closed
Poll closed
blutgraetsche- Number of posts : 23328
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Allez les rouges- Number of posts : 8098
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Registration date : 2006-08-07
Nah. 
blutgraetsche- Number of posts : 23328
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He most definitely is. Even Löw seems to agree these days.
Wiese can do everything Neuer does on the line and in 1on1s. He is a worse footballer and his throws are nowhere near as precise. That makes Neuer the more complete goal keeper, but that's about it. Adler is nowhere near those two when it comes to consistency.
Wiese can do everything Neuer does on the line and in 1on1s. He is a worse footballer and his throws are nowhere near as precise. That makes Neuer the more complete goal keeper, but that's about it. Adler is nowhere near those two when it comes to consistency.
Ä- Number of posts : 11028
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ManU have entered the race for Neuer it seems, bidding 27 million Euros
Dummenigge wanted to pay 18 million
squeeze the Münchner dry, me thinks
Dummenigge wanted to pay 18 million
squeeze the Münchner dry, me thinks
blutgraetsche- Number of posts : 23328
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Manchester United would be the more logical choice for Neuer. A new league, new experience and at least as much of a guarantee to play CL footie as he would have moving to München, knowing that despite the so called 'dominance' of Bayern in Germany, they do miss the CL from time to time (probably again this year), while Manchester United never do in England. In addition to that, the Bayern Ultras still hate him and will likely protest against signing him again this weekend, when Bayern meet Schalke at home.
Either way, if United are seriously interested, it's good news for Schalke, since they still need money badly. Funny how a good season in the CL has saved them from all the financial troubles. They'll probably make a €100m this season.
Either way, if United are seriously interested, it's good news for Schalke, since they still need money badly. Funny how a good season in the CL has saved them from all the financial troubles. They'll probably make a €100m this season.
Ä- Number of posts : 11028
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Neuer's girlfriend lives in Munich NOW already
that's the REAL reason why the lad wants to join Bayern
still
let's hope for a bidding WAR that will RUIN Hoeness and Co
that's the REAL reason why the lad wants to join Bayern
still
let's hope for a bidding WAR that will RUIN Hoeness and Co
blutgraetsche- Number of posts : 23328
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Well, girlfriends can move, too. And who wouldn't prefer the industrial flair of Manchester to Munich's Biergärten and Schickeria...?
Allez les rouges- Number of posts : 8098
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We know I would combust if that happened, so please stop raising my blood pressure unnecessarily
blutgraetsche- Number of posts : 23328
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Won't happen anyway. Manchester United don't sign German players (for their first team...).
The irony is that they let Ron-Robert Zieler (U19 European Champion) go for free. He had a great season for Hannover so far. Many believe him to become serious competition for Neuer, Wiese and Adler in forseeable time, another young goal keeper with great potential for the national team.
The irony is that they let Ron-Robert Zieler (U19 European Champion) go for free. He had a great season for Hannover so far. Many believe him to become serious competition for Neuer, Wiese and Adler in forseeable time, another young goal keeper with great potential for the national team.
Allez les rouges- Number of posts : 8098
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blutgraetsche wrote:Wiese is better than Adler.
Isco Benny- Number of posts : 19647
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blutgraetsche wrote:Won't happen anyway. Manchester United don't sign German players (for their first team...).
The irony is that they let Ron-Robert Zieler (U19 European Champion) go for free. He had a great season for Hannover so far. Many believe him to become serious competition for Neuer, Wiese and Adler in forseeable time, another young goal keeper with great potential for the national team.
Before United signed Kleberson a few seasons ago, there had never been a Brazilian in the first team. Now they often have 3 playing with Anderson and the Twins. Don't think United purposely don't sign Germans- it just has to suit both parties. For example they were well known to have tried to lure Ballack, but THE ONE preferred London life and the 130k a week Chelsea were offering.
By the way, surely Wiese is seen as a bit of an average keeper? Spoke to some Bremen fans on the way to the Fulham friendly last season and they were saying he was a liability.
blutgraetsche- Number of posts : 23328
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Wiese is NOT average! 
Seriously, the worst and most ungrateful 'critics' of him are the Werder fans themselves. He always had a lot of 'fans' being ridiculously critical of him, but most them shut up after his imperious performances in the 4 'clasicos' against HSV two years ago. There are still some who simply won't acknowledge his talent, despite him saving our arse so often and being the only consistent performer of our team for years! It probably has a lot to do with his 'difficult' character and appearance. He'll never be everybody's darling, but to hell with that! That's actually why I like him so much. He's a dying breed in this world of streamlined yes-men.
Seriously, the worst and most ungrateful 'critics' of him are the Werder fans themselves. He always had a lot of 'fans' being ridiculously critical of him, but most them shut up after his imperious performances in the 4 'clasicos' against HSV two years ago. There are still some who simply won't acknowledge his talent, despite him saving our arse so often and being the only consistent performer of our team for years! It probably has a lot to do with his 'difficult' character and appearance. He'll never be everybody's darling, but to hell with that! That's actually why I like him so much. He's a dying breed in this world of streamlined yes-men.
Isco Benny- Number of posts : 19647
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blutgraetsche wrote:Wiese is NOT average!
Seriously, the worst and most ungrateful 'critics' of him are the Werder fans themselves. He always had a lot of 'fans' being ridiculously critical of him, but most them shut up after his imperious performances in the 4 'clasicos' against HSV two years ago. There are still some who simply won't acknowledge his talent, despite him saving our arse so often and being the only consistent performer of our team for years! It probably has a lot to do with his 'difficult' character and appearance. He'll never be everybody's darling, but to hell with that! That's actually why I like him so much. He's a dying breed in this world of streamlined yes-men.
Sounds very much like Spurs fans' opinion of Gomes - very divided, with many of us being his harshest critics.
Personally, I know he has saved our asses in a number of games and am thankful to him for that. But he's also made some horrendous cock ups which a top 'keeper should not do. Hence why I can't say he's world class or brilliant.
Speaking to a goalkeeping mate of mine, he makes the point that nowadays there are plenty of brilliant keepers when it comes to being athletic, mobile shot stoppers with finely honed / quick reactions. Gomes is particularly good in this respect for example. As was Jens Lehmann. As was David James
The characteristic that divides the good from the great is decision making. What to do at crosses, where to position yourself at corners, when to kick etc. Relatively few keepers are brilliant at this. Certainly the 3 mentioned above are or were not
blutgraetsche- Number of posts : 23328
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Gomes? GOMES????
Seriously, this guy is Germany's #2. Considering the ridiculously strong competition on his position, that must at least mean something...?
Wiese had one big cockup in his entire career that really cost us, the CL match against Juve that we drew away thanks to a mistake of his. However, what many seem to forget, he had one brilliant match before that, basically keeping the tie alive for us with numerous great saves.
That was in the beginning of his career. His game has improved a lot since then. He's still not the best footballer out there, but he has worked on his weaknesses and has become a much better keeper as a consequence. He used to be a line hogger, just a great shot stopper with excellent reflexes, but those days are long over. Being criticised his entire career, often unfairly, and having Kahn as his role model has made him one extremely ambitious guy who tries to improve every day to silence his critics. He seems to feed of the negativity, which isn't necessarily a bad thing at all.
Even Neuer has made a few horrible mistakes in his young career, all of them have.
Seriously, this guy is Germany's #2. Considering the ridiculously strong competition on his position, that must at least mean something...?
Wiese had one big cockup in his entire career that really cost us, the CL match against Juve that we drew away thanks to a mistake of his. However, what many seem to forget, he had one brilliant match before that, basically keeping the tie alive for us with numerous great saves.
That was in the beginning of his career. His game has improved a lot since then. He's still not the best footballer out there, but he has worked on his weaknesses and has become a much better keeper as a consequence. He used to be a line hogger, just a great shot stopper with excellent reflexes, but those days are long over. Being criticised his entire career, often unfairly, and having Kahn as his role model has made him one extremely ambitious guy who tries to improve every day to silence his critics. He seems to feed of the negativity, which isn't necessarily a bad thing at all.
Even Neuer has made a few horrible mistakes in his young career, all of them have.
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Noah und der Bale wrote:
Speaking to a goalkeeping mate of mine, he makes the point that nowadays there are plenty of brilliant keepers when it comes to being athletic, mobile shot stoppers with finely honed / quick reactions. Gomes is particularly good in this respect for example. As was Jens Lehmann. As was David James
The characteristic that divides the good from the great is decision making. What to do at crosses, where to position yourself at corners, when to kick etc. Relatively few keepers are brilliant at this. Certainly the 3 mentioned above are or were not
THOSE were EXACTLY Lehmann's strengths
bernd, I honestly don't have the foggiest what you are talking about
Jens was sometimes accused of not doing anything SPECIAL
where were his spectacular saves ???
people wondered
to which he, rightly, replied, that most people did not understand anything about goalkeeping
it was mostly about finding the right angle to the ball so that you did not have to make great saves in the first place
and that is what he DID
+
Lehmann was not merely a good keeper , he is an ALL-TIME-GREAT
bernd, THAT was ONE provocation too many
you now have make the Germans on here a peace-offer
wahre G
----------------------
bizarre stuff on the Neuer-to-Bayern-saga
apparently, Dummenigge has made an offer of 14 million Euro to Schalke
what an insult
surely, Schalke will NOT even reply to this nonsense
the alleged 27 million offer by ManU will have pissed off Bayern accordingly
the Bavarian's negotiating position has now been undermined by non other than BECKENbauer himself
who says that DUmmenigge has to pay WHATEVER Schalke demand
"everything we have"
more specifically, 50 million is a JUSTIFIED price, the Kaiser believes
http://www.spox.com/de/sport/fussball/bundesliga/1105/News/franz-beckenbauer-transfer-manuel-neuer-50-millionen-euro-uli-hoeness-christian-nerlinger.html
Allez les rouges- Number of posts : 8098
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Good stuff Otto
Wiese, despite his improvements, is still prone to the occasional fuckup amid the "brilliance" – as hopeless as Werder's defending is, the goal last Friday still goes down as a Torwartfehler, hence my post.
Still, comparing him to Gomes is indeed a bit of a joke.
Wiese, despite his improvements, is still prone to the occasional fuckup amid the "brilliance" – as hopeless as Werder's defending is, the goal last Friday still goes down as a Torwartfehler, hence my post.
Still, comparing him to Gomes is indeed a bit of a joke.
Isco Benny- Number of posts : 19647
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@Otto,
now I know that collectively the Germans on here like to rimjob the "Mad Genius" as he WAS a character, and yes, he pulled off a great penalty shoot out against Argentina in 2006,
but this isn't like all those other cases where you can argue that we haven't seen enough of said player plying his trade in some less broadcasted league like the Bundesliga;
I saw enough of Lemon in England to be completely baffled as to why anyone would try and suggest this fella was "one of the best". Then again, you said the same of Ballack even AFTER underwhelming season after season at Chelsea.
Don't you dare accuse me of being anti-German either you cad: I know a decent German player when I see one. I also know a decent goalkeeper when I see one.
Lehmann was a character. But he made many stupid blunders, embarrassing blunders. I can understand why people are bigging up Neuer, as he doesn't appear to make those blunders.
But please, spare me the "Jens is a genius".
This video sums him up perfectly. Some of those blunders are laughable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPbD34RE0JY&playnext=1&list=PLAE71E389DCB91802
As for Wiese - I can honestly say I haven't seen enough of him to make a comparison with anyone. Hence, I wasn't actually comparing him to Gomes, I was comparing the split opinions of Werder fans to him in a similar way to Spurs fans regarding Gomes (although after this weekend you'll probably find it's become more unanimous that Gomes is a calamity). So chill your bohnen gentleman
TCHUSS!
now I know that collectively the Germans on here like to rimjob the "Mad Genius" as he WAS a character, and yes, he pulled off a great penalty shoot out against Argentina in 2006,
but this isn't like all those other cases where you can argue that we haven't seen enough of said player plying his trade in some less broadcasted league like the Bundesliga;
I saw enough of Lemon in England to be completely baffled as to why anyone would try and suggest this fella was "one of the best". Then again, you said the same of Ballack even AFTER underwhelming season after season at Chelsea.
Don't you dare accuse me of being anti-German either you cad: I know a decent German player when I see one. I also know a decent goalkeeper when I see one.
Lehmann was a character. But he made many stupid blunders, embarrassing blunders. I can understand why people are bigging up Neuer, as he doesn't appear to make those blunders.
But please, spare me the "Jens is a genius".
This video sums him up perfectly. Some of those blunders are laughable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPbD34RE0JY&playnext=1&list=PLAE71E389DCB91802
As for Wiese - I can honestly say I haven't seen enough of him to make a comparison with anyone. Hence, I wasn't actually comparing him to Gomes, I was comparing the split opinions of Werder fans to him in a similar way to Spurs fans regarding Gomes (although after this weekend you'll probably find it's become more unanimous that Gomes is a calamity). So chill your bohnen gentleman
TCHUSS!
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I agree Lehmann was a very average goalie and an idiotic clown. Who didnt even deserve the second spot behind Kahn, now that was a good goalie and was very German.
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Lehmann was the touchstone of great goalkeeping for whole new generation, none more so than Neuer himself.
IMO, one of the all-time greats. Best in collecting crosses & coming off the line to become the sweeper in 1-on-1. The latter being a specially suicidal skill on the same level as Pat Rafter coming to the nets vs Andre Agassi. Not always works (ask Eto'o).
His best years were for Schalke. Stopped numerous 1-on-1's in the 97 UEFA cup run against the Spanish teams in KO phase. But I'm sure he's more fondly remembered for cup final penalty shootout. It's no coincidence that young Neuer wanted to become a GK after seeing him..
IMO, one of the all-time greats. Best in collecting crosses & coming off the line to become the sweeper in 1-on-1. The latter being a specially suicidal skill on the same level as Pat Rafter coming to the nets vs Andre Agassi. Not always works (ask Eto'o).
His best years were for Schalke. Stopped numerous 1-on-1's in the 97 UEFA cup run against the Spanish teams in KO phase. But I'm sure he's more fondly remembered for cup final penalty shootout. It's no coincidence that young Neuer wanted to become a GK after seeing him..
Isco Benny- Number of posts : 19647
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Kahn had a horror show in the 2002 WC final. But probably the only blot on his otherwise exceptional career.
I have no problems if I'm being told that Kahn was one of the best. I understand Germans are very proud of their tradition of producing good goalkeepers, but have some decorum gents. It's undignified
I have no problems if I'm being told that Kahn was one of the best. I understand Germans are very proud of their tradition of producing good goalkeepers, but have some decorum gents. It's undignified
Isco Benny- Number of posts : 19647
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Fenomeno wrote:Lehmann was the touchstone of great goalkeeping for whole new generation, none more so than Neuer himself.
IMO, one of the all-time greats. Best in collecting crosses & coming off the line to become the sweeper in 1-on-1. The latter being a specially suicidal skill on the same level as Pat Rafter coming to the nets vs Andre Agassi. Not always works (ask Eto'o).
His best years were for Schalke. Stopped numerous 1-on-1's in the 97 UEFA cup run against the Spanish teams in KO phase. But I'm sure he's more fondly remembered for cup final penalty shootout. It's no coincidence that young Neuer wanted to become a GK after seeing him..
What the bejesus does this even mean??!
For whom? Germans? More than Kahn or Kopke???
For the rest of the World? More so than Buffon, Casillas, Schmeichel, Taffarel, Van der Sar, Chilavert, Preud'homme, Ravelli, Barthez or all those other world class goalkeepers around in the 90's?
Your posts are usually spot on, but this one utterly baffles me - the suggestion that Lehmann was revolutionary to goalkeeping, over all these other far better goalkeepers, has just taken things to a whole new level of weirdness.
You'll make Otto positively tickled pink with happiness though
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Noah und der Bale wrote:Kahn had a horror show in the 2002 WC final. But probably the only blot on his otherwise exceptional career.
I have no problems if I'm being told that Kahn was one of the best. I understand Germans are very proud of their tradition of producing good goalkeepers, but have some decorum gents. It's undignified
He also had a horror show in the 5-1.
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Noah und der Bale wrote:Fenomeno wrote:Lehmann was the touchstone of great goalkeeping for whole new generation, none more so than Neuer himself.
IMO, one of the all-time greats. Best in collecting crosses & coming off the line to become the sweeper in 1-on-1. The latter being a specially suicidal skill on the same level as Pat Rafter coming to the nets vs Andre Agassi. Not always works (ask Eto'o).
His best years were for Schalke. Stopped numerous 1-on-1's in the 97 UEFA cup run against the Spanish teams in KO phase. But I'm sure he's more fondly remembered for cup final penalty shootout. It's no coincidence that young Neuer wanted to become a GK after seeing him..
What the bejesus does this even mean??!
For whom? Germans? More than Kahn or Kopke???
For the rest of the World? More so than Buffon, Casillas, Schmeichel, Taffarel, Van der Sar, Chilavert, Preud'homme, Ravelli, Barthez or all those other world class goalkeepers around in the 90's?
Your posts are usually spot on, but this one utterly baffles me - the suggestion that Lehmann was revolutionary to goalkeeping, over all these other far better goalkeepers, has just taken things to a whole new level of weirdness.
You'll make Otto positively tickled pink with happiness though
I'll leave that judgment to your choice of words & logic. But let's agree to disagree.
If I may try to reason out. I attribute individual brilliance by mechanics of their role. In this case, Lehmann had his own coda & style of play to operate as a GK. He'd intercept crosses all game irrespective of feasibility & pull off some of the impossible with lobster arms, be it corner set-piece or open play. He'd go off the goal-line to tackle/clear/save with/without defenders ahead of him & made some of the finest octopus saves I've seen.
Which is why I draw that analogy to Patrick Rafter. Of course, there might be more 'successful' serve & volley players but there are very few who live & die by 'bushido'. When they manage to succeed, the elation is unmatchable. Gasquet isn't successful but one of the best precisely for that exquisite one handed backhand. And I hope future tennis stars look up to him & get rid of the ugly double-hands. For similar reasons, Vucinic (not the current out of form one but the 'snake' at his best) is at a high pedestal than anything of Real's current strikers. And it is not like these players haven't had success. I suppose every time they manage to 'express' their fine art, it accentuates into something of a 'divine purpose'. It is down to taste, I suppose.
And It doesn't surprise me one bit that modern GK's like Neuer would hold Lehmann as his sporting GOD & pursues own code building on that style (much like Djokovic of our times holds Rafter as the keystone of his own development)
Isco Benny- Number of posts : 19647
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You make an interesting argument I give you that.
Lobster arms / octopus saves got a chuckle out of me
Oh, there is no doubt Lehmann was fearless (apart from those times he'd fall on the floor apparently injured, which made it all the more galling watching him) and would live and die by his own decisions to come for everything and protect his box, irrespective of who got in his way. Doesn't make him a great though - as a goalkeeper you CAN'T go for every cross. You have to adapt in mere split seconds to the situation.
Goalkeeping is an incredibly tough art. It's not to say Lehmann was a poor keeper, he wasn't. But one of the best? You know what I think of that
Lobster arms / octopus saves got a chuckle out of me
Oh, there is no doubt Lehmann was fearless (apart from those times he'd fall on the floor apparently injured, which made it all the more galling watching him) and would live and die by his own decisions to come for everything and protect his box, irrespective of who got in his way. Doesn't make him a great though - as a goalkeeper you CAN'T go for every cross. You have to adapt in mere split seconds to the situation.
Goalkeeping is an incredibly tough art. It's not to say Lehmann was a poor keeper, he wasn't. But one of the best? You know what I think of that
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I'd not be surprised by Bergkamp being a fan of Hoddle. Nasri's idol was Waddle.
You might not think of Hoddle/Waddle being the absolute best of their generations (much like Lehmann) but I do. They're special players with touch of magic about 'em. Can't make one to one comparisons with (more successful) peers.
You might not think of Hoddle/Waddle being the absolute best of their generations (much like Lehmann) but I do. They're special players with touch of magic about 'em. Can't make one to one comparisons with (more successful) peers.
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Fenomeno wrote:I'd not be surprised by Bergkamp being a fan of Hoddle. Nasri's idol was Waddle.
You might not think of Hoddle/Waddle being the absolute best of their generations (much like Lehmann) but I do. They're special players with touch of magic about 'em. Can't make one to one comparisons with (more successful) peers.
Hoddle and Waddle were great
Lehmann was just a blundering village idiot though
Isco Benny- Number of posts : 19647
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Fenomeno wrote:I'd not be surprised by Bergkamp being a fan of Hoddle. Nasri's idol was Waddle.
You might not think of Hoddle/Waddle being the absolute best of their generations (much like Lehmann) but I do. They're special players with touch of magic about 'em. Can't make one to one comparisons with (more successful) peers.
I get what you're saying. But if goalkeepers like Neuer are looking up to previous keepers, it seems more likely to me he'd look at someone like Kahn or Schmeichel for example, who were both extremely dominant in the 6 yard area and taking crosses, and yet far less prone to making gaffes.
I
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Kahn & Schmeichel made mistakes too, even though they had far better defense ahead of 'em. And let's not even get to Barthez, Lehmann is a far more rounded GK & made less mistakes than him. Even as a french supporter, I have no qualms in saying that.
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/news/newsid=1265138/index.html
"I have modelled myself on his modern style of goalkeeping," said the imposing 6'3" figure of Neuer on Lehmann. Bravo
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/news/newsid=1265138/index.html
"I have modelled myself on his modern style of goalkeeping," said the imposing 6'3" figure of Neuer on Lehmann. Bravo
blutgraetsche- Number of posts : 23328
Supports : Deutsche Fußballnationalmannschaft
Registration date : 2006-08-09
Jeez....no wonder that good goal keepers are a dying breed on the island...
Every great goal keeper has made blunders in their careers, every single one of them. Neuer's style is similar to Lehmann's in the sense that it is a very risky one. Neuer basically plays as a sweeper for his team, being directly involved in the buildups, distributing the ball with precision. At worst, the considerable risk of his style results in (great) goals conceded like the one by Stankovic in the first leg against Inter. At best, he makes a direct assist like the first Klose goal against England in the WC.
A 'risky' style means that the probability of making mistakes is bigger, too. The benefits outweigh the risks though, especially in an attacking minded team. That's why Klinsmann wanted Lehmann to replace Kahn in 2006, the latter being the more 'conservative' goal keeper, despite Kahn's undisputed class. That's why Neuer is prefered to Adler or Wiese today by Löw, too.
Every great goal keeper has made blunders in their careers, every single one of them. Neuer's style is similar to Lehmann's in the sense that it is a very risky one. Neuer basically plays as a sweeper for his team, being directly involved in the buildups, distributing the ball with precision. At worst, the considerable risk of his style results in (great) goals conceded like the one by Stankovic in the first leg against Inter. At best, he makes a direct assist like the first Klose goal against England in the WC.
A 'risky' style means that the probability of making mistakes is bigger, too. The benefits outweigh the risks though, especially in an attacking minded team. That's why Klinsmann wanted Lehmann to replace Kahn in 2006, the latter being the more 'conservative' goal keeper, despite Kahn's undisputed class. That's why Neuer is prefered to Adler or Wiese today by Löw, too.
Isco Benny- Number of posts : 19647
Age : 44
Supports : Spurs, FOLLOWS (just for worms): Werder Bremen, Lazio, Ferencvaros, Valencia, El Classico, Angleterre, Magyarorszag
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Registration date : 2006-08-08
blutgraetsche wrote: At best, he makes a direct assist like the first Klose goal against England in the WC.
I'm also masssively surprised to hear what was a simple goal kick which was misjudged by the unfamiliar centre back pairing of Terry / Upson is being championed as a pre meditated assist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kLNe3DX440
Utterly baffling. If so, I see why Germans rate all their goalkeepers so highly. They can't fart without it being followed by a round of applause...
Last edited by Noah und der Bale on Tue May 03, 2011 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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