Best team in the world - Goalkeeper

Joe Hart is certainly the most talented after Seaman.

Szczsenseny & Lloris are very talented too. But again, Lehmann's style is the way forward in modern football and well adapted by Neuer.. that would make him leagues apart from other peers. Especially in my eyes.

Yes, I was trying to say (troll) that. Got me there! It was more of a dig against the English though, less against the league.

But let's see: Van der Sar is retiring (-> dying breed), Cech has regressed from his early days (-> dying breed), won't mention Arsenal and Spurs (you need to live first before you die...). Liverpool have a good keeper, Man City a quite promising one, a particularly rare example of an English goal keeper showing promise. Maybe no dying breed, but an endangered species at the very least. Who else?

blutgraetsche wrote: At best, he makes a direct assist like the first Klose goal against England in the WC.

I'm also masssively surprised to hear what was a simple goal kick which was
misjudged by the unfamiliar centre back pairing of Terry / Upson is
being championed as a pre meditated assist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kLNe3DX440

Utterly baffling.

If so, I see why Germans rate all their goalkeepers so highly. They can't fart without it being followed by a round of
applause...

That was just a more prominent example. What use is it to mention various Bundesliga matches or even EC qualification matches if hardly anyone on this board has seen them?

But Pele, if anyone can do those kicks and throws, why does it happen so rarely? Because Terry and Upson are so shit?

Besides, actually scoring the goal took quite a bit of skill, too. Not many would have done so. And it was clear to see that Klose totally expected the goal kick, which gave him the edge against Upson. So Neuer was involved in the attacking game on purpose, it was no coincidence. Löw later admitted that they had actually trained that after watching a few England tapes.

blutgraetsche wrote:Yes, I was trying to say (troll) that. Got me there! It was more of a dig against the English though, less against the league.

But let's see: Van der Sar is retiring (-> dying breed), Cech has regressed from his early days (-> dying breed), won't mention Arsenal and Spurs (you need to live first before you die...). Liverpool have a good keeper, Man City a quite promising one, a particularly rare example of an English goal keeper showing promise. Maybe no dying breed, but an endangered species at the very least. Who else?

Behave! Is there such a thing as a dying breed regarding keeepers? Those guys go on much longer than outfield players.

Van der Sar has been absolutely awesome, despite being 40. As has Schwarzer, Friedel

Reina, Howard, Sorensen, Jaaskelienen, Cech = top class keepers

Hart, Foster (struggled as a youngster under pressure at United/England, but more than making up for it now at Brum) = upcoming, the former being far more promising

The rest are nothing to shout about granted.

Depends on your defition of 'top class' though. Van der Sar clearly is, Cech was, Reina I give you, don't agree with the rest though.

Hart has the potential to become top class. You better hope that he doesn't make a blunder in an important match for England and gets crucified for it afterwards, the typical English assessment of goal keeping..

blutgraetsche wrote:That was just a more prominent example. What use is it to mention various Bundesliga matches or even EC qualification matches if hardly anyone on this board has seen them?

But Pele, if anyone can do those kicks and throws, why does it happen so rarely? Because Terry and Upson are so shit?

Besides, actually scoring the goal took quite a bit of skill, too. Not many would have done so. And it was clear to see that Klose totally expected the goal kick, which gave him the edge against Upson. So Neuer was involved in the attacking game on purpose, it was no coincidence. Löw later admitted that they had actually trained that after watching a few England tapes.

Capello took a risk which backfired massively when picking our centrebacks for the World Cup. The 2 quick mobile CB's to partner the slower Terry (King and Rio) both ended up injured. Upson was picked as a very poor man's replacement for Terry. As it turned out, they ended up partnering each other, and as you may have seen from the game, it was clear there was confusion about who would sweep up for whom - as usually it would be Rio/King coming in to sweep up behind Terry.

The fact is, a long ball goal kick down the centre is only ever going to be a hopeful tactic. That it was against two of the slow unfamiliar centrebacks (one of them indeed being shit), first a misjudged header by Terry and then late futile attempt by Shitty Upson to sweep up. Great reactions and finish by Klose (who'd had a year with his feet up on the Bayern bench to look that fresh), but 99 times out 100 that goal isn't being scored. That's why I don't believe it's much to write home about as an example of goalkeeping briliance

Well, don't take my word for it then. Just watch Neuer the next time he plays. Don't concentrate on his saves and reflexes, the obvious stuff that gets him the applauds, but look how he distributes the ball, his quick throws in particular to initiate attacks, look at the footballing side of things. This is probably more obvious when he plays for Germany than 'auf' Schalke, having better players around him and a more attacking philosophy.

Neuer is like the 11th field player for his team.

blutgraetsche wrote:Depends on your defition of 'top class' though. Van der Sar clearly is, Cech was, Reina I give you, don't agree with the rest though.

Hart has the potential to become top class. You better hope that he doesn't make a blunder in an important match for England and gets crucified for it afterwards, the typical English assessment of goal keeping..

He's done well enough so far. Appears to have the ability to handle the pressure that sadly comes from playing for a nation which the Western English speaking media take such an interest in.

Also, let's clear something up here - I get your little dig - making a blunder isn't the be all and end all, however when a keeper does it repeatedly you have to ask whether their balance of risky/safe approach is correct. Lehmann didn't make one or two errors. He made far more than what in my mind constitutes a "top class" keeper. Geddit? Good!

blutgraetsche wrote:Well, don't take my word for it then. Just watch Neuer the next time he plays. Don't concentrate on his saves and reflexes, the obvious stuff that gets him the applauds, but look how he distributes the ball, his quick throws in particular to initiate attacks, look at the footballing side of things. This is probably more obvious when he plays for Germany than 'auf' Schalke, having better players around him and a more attacking philosophy.

Neuer is like the 11th field player for his team.

I'm not denying he's good in these areas. I just debate THIS as an example.

He looks a fantastic prospect, in all areas of his game.

Shame he didn't do a Di Canio and in the name of fair play tell the Uruguayan ref that Lampard's goal went in, but he is still a dirty cheating kraut after all innit (That's for you Otto old pear. So you have the "anti-German" argument necessary for why I don't like Lehmann)

The problem is that all the compilations on Youtube are about his saves. So how can I provide you with a better example when you don't watch the league (or the national team for that matter, unless it's the Euros or WC)? You usually don't see goal keeper throws being included in match highlights.

blutgraetsche wrote:The problem is that all the compilations on Youtube are about his saves. So how can I provide you with a better example when you don't watch the league (or the national team for that matter, unless it's the Euros or WC)? You usually don't see goal keeper throws being included in match highlights.

Not true. I do watch Bundesliga games and the Men shafters on the odd occasion when I get the chance. It's not easily available, but then that's what the internet is for, other than the animal porn.

Again, I'm not arguing the point you're making about his distribution. But he's blasted a big goal kick in the England game down the middle of the park, which is why I don't see it as an great example.

Lehman's distribution wasn't that amazing though. He knew what he wanted to do, and was quick to execute it, but his kicking often went awry.

Sensational, indeed phenomenal stuff from Kollege Franzose on this thread, lovely analogies. I can't understand the clueless pigheadedness Bernd is still persisting with.

In the PL there was indeed a problem particularly with corners etc. that led to goalmouth scrambles where Lehmann clearly felt he was inadequately protected by English refs and on repeated occasions conceded soul-destroying goals from such situations scored by c**ts such as Robert Keane.

In the CL and international football, I simply don't recognize the clownish portrayal you're still trying to push – it's literally as though we're watching different games. (It seems weird that all Kahn's and Schmeichel's many mistakes or embarrassing moments are glossed over in the attempt to rubbish another's reputation. But yes, as acknowledged, Lehmann's riskier style meant it happened more often.)

And the key point as articulated by Fenomeno and backed up by Blut is that Jens is and was the very archetype and indeed admired paradigm of the modern, sweeping, "mitspielender Torhüter", a footballer and first line of attack who would have in his armoury the ability for (random) instance to intercept the ball by chesting it down and initiating the next attack.

We basically haven't had a keeper resp. have been conceding up to 8-10 points needlessly a season since we had Jens. At last with a promising young keeper we have the prospect (if only that) of this self-inflicted handicap no longer being the case.

P.S. Joe Hart is awesome

P.P.S. The goal was indeed premeditated if Blut hasn't convinced you yet Schneiderlein. Just as (the stats happarently reveal) Germany played 30% of long balls in that game, as opposed to the more normal 3% against Australia, the slow English centre-back pairing was targeted for just such a move and both keeper and centre-forward had trained it before. :weizen:

P.P.P.S. Would you have acknowledged the gaol in the same circs Bernd?

clueless pigheadedness? That's not very nice! I'm mortally offended having my schwein spitze so openly mocked!

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. For example, you've suggested Lehmann was inadequately protected by English refs. This is almost Otto-esque in attributing the blame elsewhere, (although probably just coincidence you've picked to blame the English), and also fails to take into account the number of times Jens escaped heavier punishment for gamesmanship of the highest order (the "Drogba incident" being the most obvious example)

This talk of him being a paradigm of the traditional sweeper - surely this only matters depending on the defence that is infront of him. I don't see how a keeper charging off his line is "modern" when a team is playing a deep defensive line. As Hleb mentions and I saw many times with my own eyes, his distribution really wasn't that great either.

Let's be honest, the dross Arsenal have had to make do since Lehmann - I can understand why you hold him in such high regard. Although the Polish one who knocked out Bale with his FACE looks likes he's gonna be a good one.

I'll have to take your word on the pre meditated England thing.

Noah und der Bale wrote:

blutgraetsche wrote:That was just a more prominent example. What use is it to mention various Bundesliga matches or even EC qualification matches if hardly anyone on this board has seen them?

But Pele, if anyone can do those kicks and throws, why does it happen so rarely? Because Terry and Upson are so shit?

Besides, actually scoring the goal took quite a bit of skill, too. Not many would have done so. And it was clear to see that Klose totally expected the goal kick, which gave him the edge against Upson. So Neuer was involved in the attacking game on purpose, it was no coincidence. Löw later admitted that they had actually trained that after watching a few England tapes.

Capello took a risk which backfired massively when picking our centrebacks for the World Cup. The 2 quick mobile CB's to partner the slower Terry (King and Rio) both ended up injured. Upson was picked as a very poor man's replacement for Terry. As it turned out, they ended up partnering each other, and as you may have seen from the game, it was clear there was confusion about who would sweep up for whom - as usually it would be Rio/King coming in to sweep up behind Terry.

The fact is, a long ball goal kick down the centre is only ever going to be a hopeful tactic. That it was against two of the slow unfamiliar centrebacks (one of them indeed being shit), first a misjudged header by Terry and then late futile attempt by Shitty Upson to sweep up. Great reactions and finish by Klose (who'd had a year with his feet up on the Bayern bench to look that fresh), but 99 times out 100 that goal isn't being scored. That's why I don't believe it's much to write home about as an example of goalkeeping briliance

Maybe as an isolated, individual example it was fortunate to succeed, but as part of an overall strategy it was a reward for a weakness that had been identified by the Germans beforehand, and which they tried to exploit throughout the match. The England match stood out statistically amongst all their games at the World Cup because there was a massive spike in the number of longer, direct balls that they attempted. That was clearly part of a defined strategy because it's not as if they were being dominated in midfield and unable to make shorter passes. I don't believe that it says a great deal about the goalkeeper though.

With regards to Lehmann, I think you are underestimating how good a goalkeeper he was, although I don't think he was ever amongst the true elite. Even in his first couple of years here he was unreasonably criticised by many Arsenal supporters who didn't appreciate everything he brought to our game. As others have said, the bolder the goalkeeper you are the more of a risk you run, and the more calamitous your mistakes are. And in Lehmann's case, when you act like an arse as often as he does, you're always going to get stick when you make mistakes. But a goalkeeper like Lehmann is infinitely preferable to someone who can look good saving shots and with their reactions but who lacks his ability to dominate his box or come off his line. Partly agree with the distribution comment though. He tried to use the ball intelligently rather than just hoof it, but his execution was often a bit wayward.

funny that

first Lehmann says that NEUER is NOT yet consistent enough at the TOP

then Kahn thinks Neuer is better than he was at the same age, but when the pressure is on, still crumbles

ie: he is OVERHYPED

http://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/oliver-kahn/torwart-titan-kritisiert-bayern-fuerneuer-transfer-17961348.bild.html

100% what I have been saying for some time now



Germany's top keepers are Wiese and Weidenfeller

anyway

one transfer rumour has Stekelenburg linked with Schalke

can he cut it in the Bundesliga though ?!

He's just scared of being superseded by him. All the rest is just bullshit agendas.

He's right about Heynckes and the lack of a philosophy though.

tens of thousands of fans have voted for their TEAM of the SEASON on spox

and the BEST Bundesliga GOALKEEPER , according to them , is

WEIDENFELLER



amazing to see how DETACHED from the real FAN world THIS board has already become



the REAL Germans out there know their STUFF

The Spox team of the season was a hell lot more accurate. The 'fan team' basically was Dortmund plus Gomez, obviously Dortmund fans flooded the vote. Absolutely nothing to do with "real Germans".

What depths you'll go for your agendas me wonders...

I don't know, shall we all agree to do a poll of our (real-life, German) friends and ask them who they reckon the best German goalie is?

Clearly Otto hangs around with REAL MEN who start the day with cold showers and beat their wives so will get a rather different result

We don't need to poll anyone. Beckenbauer has said that Neuer is the world's best goalkeeper, and what the Kaiser says is and always has been eminently right.

because I prefer Weidenfeller over Neuer

I am a wife-beater or hang out with that lot ??

@allez

somebody on here cannot handle the pressure , me thinks



no need to CRACK just because you are running out of arguments

I am currently browsing through Jens' autobiography again

it's GREAT stuff

he talks quite a bit about delivering when the PRESSURE is on

YOU could learn A LOT from him

READ his book, instead of INSULTING me and throwing MUD at a DEUTSCHER PATRIOT

PS

Özil thinks the BEST GOALKEEPER in the world is CASSILLAS, NOT Neuer

what do you think: HONEST assessment or playing to the Madrid gallery ?!

You're very easily offended for such a HARD MAN Otto

You're not going to get away with swinging your agendas on to me, won't work, it's you who likes to slap labels on everything.

I has not got the book yet because although it was 16€ in hardback you said I might as well wait for the paperback. I look forward to it.

In answer to your last question: what do YOU think?

well

let's see what Bodo Illgner thinks

http://sportbild.bild.de/SPORT/fussball/2011/05/25/bodo-illgner/manuel-neuer-ist-nicht-der-beste-torwart-der-welt.html

"Er gehört sicher zu den besten Torhütern. Ich stufe aber Iker Casillas von Real Madrid momentan als den weltbesten Torwart ein, da er mit seinen erst 30 Jahren alle erdenklichen Titel gewonnen hat und daran auch maßgeblichen Anteil hatte. Er zeigt in der Liga Woche für Woche, wie wichtig er für Real ist."

Not a desperately controversial opinion, is it?

He has plenty of time to become the best keeper in the world. In the meantime it's you who think Wiese and Weidenfeller are better.

Agendas