FC BAYERN 2011/12

Kroos wrote:for me the best position for kroos is the schweini position, talent wise he shits on schweini any given day

Be very careful, Kroos may be very talented but hasn't done enough to deserve the hype over the last four years. And he should learn to play the #10 before he can thinking about playing the #6. no one can seriously claim he's defensively up to it at the moment.

Schweinsteiger will end his career fêted as a Matthäus, Kroos will do well to be a Häßler.

Oh and he isn't "Schweini" any more, you're at least 18 months out of date on that one.

khedira/bender/rolfes are a 6

schweinsteiger is a 6 and a 8 (lets be serious, in going forward hes nothing special, 4 weeks at the world cup dont change my mind) kroos would improve our game heavily if he would play in schweinsteigers position

kroos is a 8 and a 10 for me

for me kroos lacks fundamental elements to become a world class 10 (he lacks speed, dribbling ability, hes not dynamic and agile enough), but he has everything to become a world class 8 (a xavi, pirlo, scholes type), kroos has also a brilliant long rage shot

Bastian when on song can dominate a game like few others, so "nothing special going forward" I guess he can probably deal with.

A mixture of #6 and #8 for Schweinsteiger and #8 and #10 for Kroos is probably about right (although that doesn't make it sound as though Kroos is yet ready long-term for the 2 in the 4-2-3-1, not at the moment), but it had better be as a replacement for Khedira rather than Schweinsteiger if so. You're not seriously advocating any different? Any criticisms of Bastian's limitations apply to Sami too, only several times over.

Kroos wrote:khedira/bender/rolfes are a 6

schweinsteiger is a 6 and a 8 (lets be serious, in going forward hes nothing special, 4 weeks at the world cup dont change my mind) kroos would improve our game heavily if he would play in schweinsteigers position

kroos is a 8 and a 10 for me

for me kroos lacks fundamental elements to become a world class 10 (he lacks speed, dribbling ability, hes not dynamic and agile enough), but he has everything to become a world class 8 (a xavi, pirlo, scholes type), kroos has also a brilliant long rage shot

Not that I necessarily agree with you, but wow - I'm impressed with this post, sounds like you're becoming much more balanced in your judgements of German players.

Who do you think is/ will beome a better player - Kroos or Gotze? Both player a similar role don't they?

khedira has a different work to do for germany, he also has the ability to attack, but for real madrid mourinho dont allows him this to often

i would prefer to drop schweinsteiger from die mannschaft, i know thats not gonna happen, so i would try kroos-schweini in the centre of the park, against the big teams you need players like bender/khedira/rolfes, but look at manchester united, they reached 2 cl finals without a real destroyer, its all about compactness of the whole team

and dominate a game (how often has he done this!) last season he failed (well the vangaal system turned probably every bayern player into average)

the season before it was vanbommel, very important player; and at the world cup, come on we are germany we would dominate most of the nations even with rolfes, its in our DNA ^^, no seriously schweini was good at the wc, very good, but he never played this again, and probably never will

Noah und der Bale wrote:

Kroos wrote:khedira/bender/rolfes are a 6

schweinsteiger is a 6 and a 8 (lets be serious, in going forward hes nothing special, 4 weeks at the world cup dont change my mind) kroos would improve our game heavily if he would play in schweinsteigers position

kroos is a 8 and a 10 for me

for me kroos lacks fundamental elements to become a world class 10 (he lacks speed, dribbling ability, hes not dynamic and agile enough), but he has everything to become a world class 8 (a xavi, pirlo, scholes type), kroos has also a brilliant long rage shot

Not that I necessarily agree with you, but wow - I'm impressed with this post, sounds like you're becoming much more balanced in your judgements of German players.

Who do you think is/ will beome a better player - Kroos or Gotze? Both player a similar role don't they?

thx i appreciate this btw i was never a big schweini fan, and since his contract extension he was just shit

both very different players

to make it easier for you, götze is a messi and iniesta combination

kroos when he reaches his peak will be a xavi type

Well the disagreement is pretty clear on this one. We shall see who is right

Bayern-Trainer Heynckes im Gespräch "Ballbesitz und Dominanz reichen heute nicht mehr"
http://www.faz.net/artikel/C30127/bayern-trainer-heynckes-im-gespraech-ballbesitz-und-dominanz-reichen-heute-nicht-mehr-30480171.html

bayern need some serious changes, i hope jupp learned some stuff from the brasil game, but i have a feeling nothing will change

schweinsteiger is not a playmaker from the deep, hes just a 6

kroos needs equivalent midfield partners, which i dont see at bayern (tell me one thing, what would xavi be without iniesta^^ )

for an modern combination game we have with robbery the wrong players, they are both just individuals, we should try to sell ribery, robben is enough for the X-factor lol, wont also happen

in summary, again a lost YEAR for bayern, we have a totally wrong squad compilation

there is no chance that our style will that much improve that we will ever catch the likes of BARCA lol or the BVB

Kroos wrote:

for an modern combination game we have with robbery the wrong players, they are both just individuals, we should try to sell ribery, robben is enough for the X-factor lol, wont also happen

This train has left Munich station two years ago, don't think I will ever understand why Bayern didn't sell for for crazy money offered by Real

stinger wrote:

Kroos wrote:

for an modern combination game we have with robbery the wrong players, they are both just individuals, we should try to sell ribery, robben is enough for the X-factor lol, wont also happen

This train has left Munich station two years ago, don't think I will ever understand why Bayern didn't sell for for crazy money offered by Real

i am not sure if there was a serious offer from real madrid

medias write much bullshit

how often was the snjeider deal already done, how often the fabregas deal

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/editorial/2011/08/12/2616022/bastian-schweinsteiger-toni-kroos-affirmed-their-class-for

Bastian Schweinsteiger & Toni Kroos affirmed their class for Germany against Brazil, but can they work in tandem for Bayern Munich?



as long kroos plays the 10 for munich nothing will change, he will never have this amount of ball contacts in this position (among the 2 opponent 6ers as well), schweini plays the role of kroos in munich, but he is far to limited for this position, schweini plays only 2 metre safety passes; have you seen the passes from kroos against brazil, they were fast, wide and vertical, schweini also lacks the vision and the brain for quick decision making

you rarely see this kind of passing from schweini, against gladbach the error rate of schweinis passing was just horrendous

4-1-4-1 system of the Brazil match, Bayern style:


------------------Neuer------------------
Rafinha-Boateng-Badstuber-Lahm
------------Schweinsteiger-------------
--Robben--Müller--Kroos--Ribery--
------------------Gomez------------------

Sorted!

Too many direct players to get away with Schweinsteiger playing as lone DM.

Schweini will die exhausted

Nah he won't. Müller and Kroos would have to help out defensively in the centre, of course, as would the central defenders. Did you watch the Brazil match / read the article Kroos posted?

That's how the midfield looked like that dominated Brazil for most of the match:

------------Schweinsteiger-------------
--Müller--Götze--Kroos--Podolski--

It's a slightly different game plan, almost automatically. A higher emphasis on possession and control.

Interesting analysis of Schweinsteiger, his 'new' role under Heynckes etc.

http://www.spox.com/de/sport/fussball/bundesliga/1108/Artikel/daten-analyse-bastian-schweinsteiger-offensiver-bei-heynckes-dank-luiz-gustavo-tymoshchuk.html

Kroos (the poster, not the player...) will hate it though.

blutgraetsche wrote:Interesting analysis of Schweinsteiger, his 'new' role under Heynckes etc.

http://www.spox.com/de/sport/fussball/bundesliga/1108/Artikel/daten-analyse-bastian-schweinsteiger-offensiver-bei-heynckes-dank-luiz-gustavo-tymoshchuk.html

Kroos (the poster, not the player...) will hate it though.

Something surprisingly is however that pig riser in three federal league plays was involved so far only in eleven gate shots and even still no large chance erspielte. Its somewhat higher false passport ratio is an indication for the fact that it goes in the structure play again somewhat higher risk than still under van Gaal - however without right success.

I love my translator :/

Haha...that's ace.... "pig riser in three federal league plays"

Sorry, but Spox don't have an English section. They have some decent analysis from time to time, including in-depth tactical analysis of Premier League teams actually.

I don't know many English sites that cover the Bundesliga. The official Bundesliga site is ok, but you won't find any analysis there. ESPN Soccernet has the occassional Uli Hesse column, so does The Guardian with Raphael Honigstein, and there is goal.com. That's about it.

blutgraetsche wrote:Interesting analysis of Schweinsteiger, his 'new' role under Heynckes etc.

http://www.spox.com/de/sport/fussball/bundesliga/1108/Artikel/daten-analyse-bastian-schweinsteiger-offensiver-bei-heynckes-dank-luiz-gustavo-tymoshchuk.html

Kroos (the poster, not the player...) will hate it though.

How often did Bastian and Kroos play together in central midfield last season? It certainly wasn't more than four or five times IIRC. It's a little far-fetched to draw conclusions from that. It also doesn't make sense to compare Bastian's stats of the last two seasons as he played a considerable number of games as AM last year which of course does affect his passing accuracy and number of touches on the ball.

Not often, but the general question of stability in the centre remains in a 4-2-3-1 IMHO, especially against strong teams. Kroos' defensive game has improved, but he is still not the born tackler and he does lack pace. Schweinsteiger lacks pace, too. They are different players, being too similar is not the reason why they can't play together as many believe, but they do have similar weaknesses.

Löw's 4-1-4-1 against Brazil added more balance despite being more attacking - it's the way to go to play both Schweinsteiger and Kroos. The reason being the different role of the fullbacks in Löw's interpretation of the 4-1-4-1. Lahm and Träsch played like 'regular' midfielders in that system, further up the pitch, so for most of the game, it looked like we're playing with three 'holding midfielders' (Träsch and Lahm on the flanks). The central defenders supported Schweinsteiger a lot, too. So in reality, it was more of a 2-3-4-1 system than 4-1-4-1.

Sure, the team had to get used to the new system first and not everything worked well from the beginning, but it was an interesting approach that could give us the edge in an era when almost every team plays a variant of 4-2-3-1. Heynckes is a more conservative coach though and I can't see him experiment with the formation anytime soon, if ever.

No Robben in the crucial CL qualification match against Zürich tonight. Müller to replace him on the right

http://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/bayern-muenchen/diese-elf-soll-zuerich-schlagen-19534282.bild.html

Likely lineup:

------------------Neuer--------------------
Rafinha-Boateng-Badstuber-Lahm
--------Gustavo--------------------------
---------------Schweinsteiger----------
--Müller---------Kroos--------Ribery--
------------------Gomez------------------

blutgraetsche wrote:Not often, but the general question of stability in the centre remains in a 4-2-3-1 IMHO, especially against strong teams. Kroos' defensive game has improved, but he is still not the born tackler and he does lack pace. Schweinsteiger lacks pace, too. They are different players, being too similar is not the reason why they can't play together as many believe, but they do have similar weaknesses.

Löw's 4-1-4-1 against Brazil added more balance despite being more attacking - it's the way to go to play both Schweinsteiger and Kroos. The reason being the different role of the fullbacks in Löw's interpretation of the 4-1-4-1. Lahm and Träsch played like 'regular' midfielders in that system, further up the pitch, so for most of the game, it looked like we're playing with three 'holding midfielders' (Träsch and Lahm on the flanks). The central defenders supported Schweinsteiger a lot, too. So in reality, it was more of a 2-3-4-1 system than 4-1-4-1.

Sure, the team had to get used to the new system first and not everything worked well from the beginning, but it was an interesting approach that could give us the edge in an era when almost every team plays a variant of 4-2-3-1. Heynckes is a more conservative coach though and I can't see him experiment with the formation anytime soon, if ever.

I looked it up, Kroos and Bastian played 4 games next to each other in central midfield last season

vs. Hamburg 6-0
vs. Freiburg 2-1
vs. Gladbach 1-0
vs. Nürnberg 1-1

fairly decent results for a midfield paring that allegedly can't play together...

Anyway, my issue with the article is less the author's conclusion than the arguments he used to reach it (applying arguments that are factually wrong and using misleading stats).

I tend to agree with those who say both have similar weaknesses and therefore don't complement each other well enough to be competitive in games against tough opposition, not yet that is. But I wouldn't write this partnership off as of yet. It has been obvious for some time that Bayern have problems to score against teams that sit deep, defend well and let Bayern have control of possession. In games like these it may be worth considering to replace a ball winner like Gustavo who offers very little going forward with someone like Kroos to add more variation to Bayern's attacking game. There certainly are a few doubts about the defensive solidity of such partnership in midfield, but IMO it's not impossible to make it work even against stronger opposition when given the time to gel.

Interesting thoughts on the 4-1-4-1 btw. I did notice it too that Träsch and Lahm played more centrally than usual against Brazil but I dismissed it as a coincidence/natural inclination (Lahm as a right footer tends to drift inside and Träsch being a DM/FB hybrid does the same on the other side). It definitely was a very interesting experiment and I'd like to see more of the same in the next couple of friendlies/qualifiers.

I don't think the 4-1-4-1 would work for Bayern though due to their use of inverted wingers. Using inverted wingers and FBs who work mostly centrally would make their game very narrow and easy to defend against.

Good point about the inverted wingers at Bayern. Generally speaking though, Heynckes simply doesn't seem like a coach who experiments a lot to me. He tends to believe that Kroos' best position is the #10, for instance, unlike Löw, and doesn't seem to be willing to play him elsewhere.

Of course Kroos and Bastian could improve their coordination if they played more matches together, but the question remains if such a central midfield would really allow us to get the best of both. Kroos ideal position is somewhere between the #6 and the #10. The 4-1-4-1 / 2-3-4-1 system allowed him to show his strengths, as he had Schweinsteiger behind him and Götze ahead of him (most of the time) who he could pass to. Some (e.g. Heynckes) say that this is Schweini's ideal position also, and therein lies the crux.

The 2-3-4-1 system is pretty demanding for the centre backs though. Hummels and Badstuber did their job really well against Brazil, often helping out Bastian and initiating a lot of attacks. But for it to become a serious 'plan a' option, the team has to be more stable on the counter. We made it too easy for Brazil at times.

blutgraetsche wrote:Interesting analysis of Schweinsteiger, his 'new' role under Heynckes etc.

http://www.spox.com/de/sport/fussball/bundesliga/1108/Artikel/daten-analyse-bastian-schweinsteiger-offensiver-bei-heynckes-dank-luiz-gustavo-tymoshchuk.html

Kroos (the poster, not the player...) will hate it though.

V interesting piece, cheers Blut. Even if the conclusions are as Hase points out open to discussion.

I can't help fearing with comments of Kroos and others that Schweinsteiger could be going the way of Ballack in becoming "der ewig Verkannte" of the German Fußballlandschaft - even to the extent of literally dividing the population.

Nah, Schweini has a lot of fans in Fussballdeutschland. Since WM 2010 latest nobody really questions his standing anymore.

Btw., interesting picture of 16 year old Schweinsteiger after winning the Deutsche B Jugend Meisterschaft with Bayern:



http://www.11freunde.de/augenblick/137594

blutgraetsche wrote:Nah, Schweini has a lot of fans in Fussballdeutschland. Since WM 2010 latest nobody really questions his standing anymore.

Btw., interesting picture of 16 year old Schweinsteiger after winning the Deutsche B Jugend Meisterschaft with Bayern:



http://www.11freunde.de/augenblick/137594

hes still a one season wonder, the last season hurt him bad

the medias love him me thinks, but it looks different in the fan sector, i think most quite critical

his game is even less spectacular to ballacks, thats why most people will get angry on him very often when the success stays away (he makes to many bad passes in the final third of the field, only 5 metre passes or passes to robbery, and hes pretty much clueless when the opponent parks the bus) he could be world class again, but not in a playmaking role, more in a role where he is doing the dirty work for more advanced footballers (which germany now undoubted have)

kroos made yesterday some stupid fouls, near the bayern box, he has to improve in that area, he should learn not to make stupid fouls and work on his tackles, then a schweini-kroos kombo can work (the best would be a holtby, götze type with kroos in midfield)

---schweini

--kroos---holtby/götze

look at Manchester united, they play now with cleverly-anderson, none of them is a typical 6 or hard tackler, but it still works (at least for the first 2 games) ferguson has the balls to drop players (for example berbatov)for players which suit the system more, i think this would be unthinkable in germany

blutgraetsche wrote:Interesting analysis of Schweinsteiger, his 'new' role under Heynckes etc.

http://www.spox.com/de/sport/fussball/bundesliga/1108/Artikel/daten-analyse-bastian-schweinsteiger-offensiver-bei-heynckes-dank-luiz-gustavo-tymoshchuk.html

Kroos (the poster, not the player...) will hate it though.

indeed i hate it, because most of it is bollocks

häeschen made some very good points here in the later post



also the main reason for the bayern decline was vangaals tactic, his main priority was to score goals, and he ignored to improve the defensive work of the whole team

of course the CM`s and CB will be the first to get exposed with such bad tactics

Not 'the fans', but a particular part of the Bayern fans has been notoriously critical with him for ages. They only shut up in his exceptional 2009/10 season, but started with the over-the-board-criticism again once he had a few less convincing matches. In contrast to other clubs, home grown players always had it more difficult in München.

That said, I think that he is back on track this season from what I have seen so far. He was excellent in the Brazil match for Germany, despite the new role, and he has improved a lot for Bayern compared to last season, too. You should be happy to have him, many other 'elite' clubs envy you.

Very tough group, but it's simple really. Should you really manage to win your group, I can see you making it far in the competition. A tough group can have its advantages.

Of course that's easier said than done.