Should Gerrard be dropped?

shazlx wrote:

Rez wrote:I think we should drop him and flumps for a few games, the way Brazil dropped Ronaldinho for a while, just to make him realise, that even though he is one of our best players, he has to step his game up.

BTW not one of the best players, lets get that clear.

I didnt mean to include flumps as one of our best players, I was just writing specifically about Gerrard.

COTR wrote:

Rez wrote:I think we should drop him and flumps for a few games, the way Brazil dropped Ronaldinho for a while, just to make him realise, that even though he is one of our best players, he has to step his game up.

totally unrealistic though

without gerrard england would not have even beaten andorra

I think you realise that dropping gerrard is not the answer, however good the idea may seem in theory.

plus the MOTM display means there is even less chance

by the time england get through not playing everyone who deserves to be dropped gerrard, flump, beckham, rooney, cole, owen, robinson there simply won't be many players left

Well without Becks we wouldnt have got out of the group stage in the last WC, but he still got dropped for 11 months. Stevie is an awesome player, but sometimes you need to do things for the team, The same way Fergie sold RVN last season, he is an great player, but we play better without him.

I dont think he should drop him, for as long as he did becks, but for at least a few games. If Dunga can drop Ronaldo and ROnaldinho, Mxlaren should be able to drop Lampard and Gerrard.

Dropping Ronaldinho is not the best example, because it's known that Dunga has a problem with him. Plus he mainly dropped him when he was struggling for fitness in spells this season.

he did drop lampard in the last game

If everyone is fit I have no doubt Mc'claren will go for

beckham....gerrard...hargreaves...cole

this has not been tried yet and would be the midfield that has all england's bst players on the pitch rather than playing your jenas' or barton as shaz is calling for

If he can't get this to work then fire away with dropping gerrard (it'll never happen obviously) but don't be expecting any miracles from a gerrardless midfield because the main fault as DD outlined in another thread is the clueless setup from the manager

COTR, this thread is silly, do you agree? MotM so he's dropped? Surely we have to see how he plays without Lampard before we can say 'drop him' He had a pretty good match FFS, in the role he was given He misplaced a few passes! DROP HIM.

kas wrote:

OwenThomas4 wrote:

kas wrote:No, because he epitomises England's strength - non-stop, going at the opposition, putting crosses in, always working hard, etc. Too bad the current and previous manager have completely abandoned any use of these strengths.

I think the team should be like others have posted - Gerrard with Hargreaves behind him, though I would also like to see if Carrick-Gerrard works.

This is an insult but it's true.

Embarrassing.

No, I don't think so. I'm not saying they're a bad footballing side. The players are reasonably good technically (not Spain, Italy, Brazil, Argentina, etc.) but more than good enough. But there's just an overall feeling of lethargy rather than any passion (as much as I hate to use that cliche), which is holding England back.

I don't even understand why the team has to be so defensive, the two CBs and generally the fullbacks are always good. Trust them a little more, play a slightly deeper midfielder since two "normal" ones in Gerrard and Lampard doesn't work, and just go for it. It's simple.

Its not that simple. All players playing for England (with the exception of Hargreaves) learned it the old English 4-4-2 way. Even though sometimes at clubs they learn different styles (rarely) they have trouble:
1) adapting to any other style than 4-4-2
2) being multifunctional players. Being able to playin different positions and different roles more precisely.

This all has to do with the way they learned football when they were younger. This has to do with the academies and the old school managers (who themselves played in 70s and early 80s). Grit and determination and hoofing the ball were higher priorities than personal development.

These old dogs don't learn new tricks and for England to change and the players to adapt the mentality and view of football has to change. I think it does though and may come sooner than you all think. The cantona and in particular Bergkamp influence on Premiership football means that the kids who were 7 when in 1998 will be 18 in 2009 - that's when you'll get the first real new English/British wave of players IMO.

After all its not that simple.

COTR wrote:he did drop lampard in the last game

If everyone is fit I have no doubt Mc'claren will go for

beckham....gerrard...hargreaves...cole

this has not been tried yet and would be the midfield that has all england's bst players on the pitch rather than playing your jenas' or barton as shaz is calling for

If he can't get this to work then fire away with dropping gerrard (it'll never happen obviously) but don't be expecting any miracles from a gerrardless midfield because the main fault as DD outlined in another thread is the clueless setup from the manager

That midfield looks good, although if Cole persists with his rubbish step overs that dont go anywhere, he should be dropped as well. I dont agree with Jenas or Barton, they are just rubbish.

And no Gerrard does not need to be dropped.

Rez wrote:

COTR wrote:he did drop lampard in the last game

If everyone is fit I have no doubt Mc'claren will go for

beckham....gerrard...hargreaves...cole

this has not been tried yet and would be the midfield that has all england's bst players on the pitch rather than playing your jenas' or barton as shaz is calling for

If he can't get this to work then fire away with dropping gerrard (it'll never happen obviously) but don't be expecting any miracles from a gerrardless midfield because the main fault as DD outlined in another thread is the clueless setup from the manager

That midfield looks good, although if Cole persists with his rubbish step overs that dont go anyway, he should be dropped as well. I dont agree with Jenas or Barton, they are just rubbish.

I don't get some people

they criticise for a lack of creativity and cole shows some and still gets ciriticised. he was about the only midfielder carrying the ball to brazil today. i thought he did ok but his main problem stemmed from Mc'clueless starting two midgets up front and therefore there was nobody to cross the ball in to.

COTR wrote:

Rez wrote:

COTR wrote:he did drop lampard in the last game

If everyone is fit I have no doubt Mc'claren will go for

beckham....gerrard...hargreaves...cole

this has not been tried yet and would be the midfield that has all england's bst players on the pitch rather than playing your jenas' or barton as shaz is calling for

If he can't get this to work then fire away with dropping gerrard (it'll never happen obviously) but don't be expecting any miracles from a gerrardless midfield because the main fault as DD outlined in another thread is the clueless setup from the manager

That midfield looks good, although if Cole persists with his rubbish step overs that dont go anyway, he should be dropped as well. I dont agree with Jenas or Barton, they are just rubbish.

I don't get some people

they criticise for a lack of creativity and cole shows some and still gets ciriticised. he was about the only midfielder carrying the ball to brazil today. i thought he did ok but his main problem stemmed from Mc'clueless starting two midgets up front and therefore there was nobody to cross the ball in to.

I am all for creativity, but he was just doing pointless stepovers, to try and impress Kaka, Ronaldinho and the Brazilian public, to say hey look at me I am just as skillful as the samba boys.

When Ronaldo does his stepovers, at least he is close to an opponent or he is runing with the ball.

If your going to take an opponent, do it properly, he just kept getting the ball in promising areas, stopping and then waiting for the defender to get back so he could try and beat him again.

come on Rez. ronaldo is the king of the pointless stepover. was it the milan game ? where he was doing so many needless ones it was embarressing for himself and the team ??

doesn't mean he should be dropped, it just means he requires better management

------------------------James------------------------
-Neville-------Terry-----------Ferdinand-----Bridge
---------------------Hargreaves---------------------
-Beckham-----------Gerrard--------------Cole-----
----------------Rooney-------Crouch----------------

That, would be an awesome team...If Gerrard was used correctly (going forward, playing off Crouch) he could be so effective.

Gerrard outshines showman Beckham

David Beckham's sense of theatre ensured he inevitably took centre stage as England returned to Wembley with a draw against Brazil

The former captain delivered trademark crosses and free-kicks around the appalling Wembley turf - including the set-piece that looked like creating the winner for his successor as skipper John Terry.

He will play against Estonia on Wednesday - coach Steve McClaren has to select him having brought him out of international exile.

It would be churlish to say Beckham's performance at Wembley was anything other than exemplary, both in attitude and in delivery.

He was involved in many good things and deserved the warm ovation he was afforded when he was substituted.

But, as someone fiercely against his comeback, nothing happened at Wembley to change a strong conviction that the move was a desperate and unneccessary short-term measure.

Sorry if this does not strike the correct chord of rejoicing, but Beckham has no place in England's plans beyond next Wednesday.

True Beckham gives England an extra edge at free-kicks, but if McClaren feels he needs a set-piece specialist to beat the might of Estonia, then his regime is in bigger trouble than we thought.

As for McClaren's lauding of Beckham after the game - "best right-sided player in the world" no less - all admirable stuff, but it begged a question.

If Beckham is such a talisman and a talent, why make such a puffed-up public show of leaving him out in the first place?

Beckham did well against Brazil, but it was hardly a hugely competitive test and he should not be considered again after Estonia.

LA Galaxy is his future, not England.

McClaren will feel robbed of a morale-boosting win after Diego's header with only seconds left.

The last thing McClaren needs is to be an unlucky coach as well an an unimpressive one given the nature of his work since succeeding Sven-Goran Eriksson.

But there were some comforting signs for McClaren to clutch at.

There at least appeared to have been some attempt to finally address the balance of the midfield link between Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard.

Gerrard was England's best player in a holding midfield role, while Lampard was poor once more on the international stage as the attacking force.

The balance, at least, looked better, but this was more a tribute to Gerrard's brilliance and adaptability than signs of a genuine, workable partnership between the pair.

Once Owen Hargreaves is fit, it will be interesting to see what decision McClaren can bring himself to take.

He should drop Lampard, give Gerrard the attacking role, and use Hargreaves as the holder.

He should...but is probably hoping something will crop up to avoid him having to pass that acid test.

Alan Smith played himself out of a role in Estonia with a lifeless performance, while Michael Owen is still clearly playing himself into form and fitness.

If England had greater options, Owen would probably be continuing his rehabilitation after serious injury, but McClaren clearly feels the cupboard is bare.

He faces a dilemma in Estonia on whether to use Owen alone up front, or give him the support of Peter Crouch, because on this evidence Smith is a non-starter.

Beckham will play of course, and will take most of the plaudits - of course.

But not for the first time, Gerrard emerged as England's best player once the effect of the glitz and the flashlights had worn off.

__________________________________

Not sure I agree with the Beckham comments...While he's still our best right midfielder, he still deserves a place in the squad. He had a decent game to.

He was Cr@p tonight. These people are just bias/clueless/deluded - I'll always believe my own eyes first. PL just said he comes from Liverpool anyway.

No, he's England's best player. so McClaren should do all what he can to get the best out of him.

I say play Gerrard in the defensive midfield position, and play him with someone creative in front. After last nights dreadful performance - perhaps the worst Ive seen from him for England - Ive given up on Lampard. Generally I dont think England need, at least in most games, a clear defensive player and an offensive one for balance, but Gerrard and Lampard are too similar, play too much of the same role and want the same positions. And neither offers creativity, nous, ability on the ball. So Id try Cole or Bentley behind a front two on Wednesday, with Downing on the left if Cole moves inside. Longer term we can play Rooney in that role and keep Cole on the left.

Like Ive just said in the match thread, for me England dont have a top class holding player, because Hargreaves isnt any good with the ball either - hes a very limited player, and even defensively Im yet to be convinced hes top class. I think Gerrard can do the defensive work as well as him, can sit just as well against better teams, whilst offering more to the team in terms of passing (he can at least make some good long passes) and giving us another dimension going forward against weaker teams.

Again, like I said in the other thread, I dont think England are blessed with many top class central midfielders. Parker, Nolan, Barton and the like are just poorer versions of Gerrard and would offer nothing different, Bentley isnt proven at a top class level and longer term is maybe similar to Rooney and Cole. Id even venture that Jenas, at least from what I saw of him in his early days at Newcastle, is the most talented of the lot, but he hasnt come on at all since then, makes mistakes, is inconsistent, lacks confidence and so on.

Parks lives wrote:Give Beckham, Gerrard, Hargreaves and J Cole at least 5 games in a row.

Exactly!! If Mclaren has enough guts to bring back Beckham, then why can't he drop Lampard and play the formation above!

Rafalution wrote:

Parks lives wrote:Give Beckham, Gerrard, Hargreaves and J Cole at least 5 games in a row.

Exactly!! If Mclaren has enough guts to bring back Beckham, then why can't he drop Lampard and play the formation above!

because he hasn't really had the chance to yet because of injuries and suspensions

Is hargreaves injured at the minute?

I always thought that in Chelsea, all Lampard does is wait around the penalty box and dictate play. He has no pressure because he knows he has 3 other world class midfielders around him that can track back and defend (Essien, Ballack, Makalele). Lampard can try as many shots as he wants at Chelsea...but at England he cant play with that freedom, he has to work hard going back and forward which I think he's not good at. Well thats my opinion, you call prove me wrong if you want!

Rafalution wrote:I always thought that in Chelsea, all Lampard does is wait around the penalty box and dictate play. He has no pressure because he knows he has 3 other world class midfielders around him that can track back and defend (Essien, Ballack, Makalele). Lampard can try as many shots as he wants at Chelsea...but at England he cant play with that freedom, he has to work hard going back and forward which I think he's not good at. Well thats my opinion, you call prove me wrong if you want!

you are about two years behind the rest of us mate.

lampard is beyond discussion these days. with a full midfield to pick from I think Mc'claren now realises there is no place for flump

comment by Fergus_k



posted 2 Minutes Ago

I was astonished to hear that Steven Gerrard got Man of the Match. He made two tackles in the first half but also got humiliated twice by ronny. He also won that free kick for beckham but it seemed like he went down awfully easily. Could anyone else please tell me what i missed last night that set him above cole, beckham, terry, ronny, kaka and gilberto.

Oh am i a bit late? Well maybe that post can go to all the Lampard lovers here (if there are any)!

Rafalution wrote:Oh am i a bit late? Well maybe that post can go to all the Lampard lovers here (if there are any)!

none left im afraid

SP tried to defend him for about a year but as you can see his defence has crumbled and he is now reduced to the mumbling wreck that you witness in this thread

COTR wrote:

Rafalution wrote:Oh am i a bit late? Well maybe that post can go to all the Lampard lovers here (if there are any)!

none left im afraid

SP tried to defend him for about a year but as you can see his defence has crumbled and he is now reduced to the mumbling wreck that you witness in this thread

I never said Lampard was good enough for the International stage post 04-05. But people on here were making him out to be a conference and the only player who wasn't performing (a scapegoat if you like).

Should Gerrard be dropped?

Well?

Yes
23% [ 5 ]
No
76% [ 16 ]

I agree that Joe Cole should quit doing stepovers. I'm a big Joe Cole fan, but it's not only that his stepovers are pointless, the way Ronaldo's often are. It's also that they look incredibly robotic and no decent defender falls for them. I had to start laughing when Cole tripped over himself after his 10th attempt at stepovers.

And no, personally I think it would be madness to drop Gerrard. How can people say that he should be dropped when he hasn't even been given a proper run in his true position with the team. While it's true that he's played several games in the attacking midfield position over the years, those games have been widely spread out. Lampard has had over 3 years of continiuty in that position and has proven to be absolutely Cr@p. Give Gerrard at least 8 games or so in that position and then judge him. He deserves that much at least.

Those step overs make J.Cole the most irritating player for me to watch. Those step overs are like the ugliest thing to hit dribbling since Peter Crouch turned pro.

He should start watching Robinho, Ronaldo (Brazil & Portuguese players) and Mancini on how to do them properly. The arc of his leg movements are way to big and he does them to slowly, without ever changing direction afterwards.

Ps Ronaldo does alot of pointless stepovers, but he usually beats the defender afterwards or wins a free kick.

j cole stepovers used to work thats why he keeps on doing them. But i think everyone knows his routine by now, looks to do 5 before cutting inside but nope doesnt work when the whole world knows your whole routine.