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    England squad

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    Post by Isco Benny Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:14 am

    Maxi Rodríglenn wrote:
    Rio England Braptain wrote:
    BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:Bernd

    Who did you have to suck off to get your ticket?

    That may be how it works in Lebanon, but here you can give someone money Ale

    when TWERP sucks someone off, he does it because he wants to

    Glennda certainly appreciates that it's easier to type than talk with his mouth full
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    Post by Tweesus Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:31 am

    A few points….

    - Defo think Hart needs to start this one. With James having injury problems we need to give Hart as much playtime as possible in the friendlies so get him settled into the side for that 'just in case' scenario in the summer.

    - Agree that Milner should also start. He warrants an opportunity to give it a go for England in the first team.

    - I think Capello has a choice to either try out a 4-5-1 with Milner as the additional midfielder and Rooney as the point striker, or… play the old 4-2-3-1 (442 - with Rooney just behind point striker) and try Milner out as one of the three (on the right).

    - The other option might well be to play Milner in the Barry position. He has the energy levels necessary and I suspect he may well even be blessed with the tactical disciline to play that role too. Might be worth trying him out there anyway to see how it works.

    - Finally, definitely want to see CC play some part in the fixture. I'm assuming that Rooney won't play too much of the game but it would be nice to see them both on the pitch together for a significant period.
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    Post by Aristoskank Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:56 am

    Tweesus wrote:- The other option might well be to play Milner in the Barry position. He has the energy levels necessary and I suspect he may well even be blessed with the tactical disciline to play that role too. Might be worth trying him out there anyway to see how it works.

    Much as I rate Milner, a central midfield of him and Lampard appalls me.
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    Post by Tweesus Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:01 pm

    Difficult wrote:
    Tweesus wrote:- The other option might well be to play Milner in the Barry position. He has the energy levels necessary and I suspect he may well even be blessed with the tactical disciline to play that role too. Might be worth trying him out there anyway to see how it works.

    Much as I rate Milner, a central midfield of him and Lampard appalls me.

    So you'd prefer Carrick-Lampard? Its too lazy a midfield. We'd be overrun against top level opposition with that (indeed we have when they've played together in friendlies).
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    Post by Aristoskank Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:05 pm

    No, I think if we're going to use Carrick for England it should be as a tactical substitution to help us retain possession when we've gone in front, or need to see out a result.

    Keep Barry in there, drop Lampard, play Milner instead. Have Lampard as an impact sub looking to get a goal from midfield as it is still the only thing he can do consistently.

    Then again, I'm still in favour of a 4-4-1-1 with Rooney up top and Joe Cole in the SS role.
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    Post by Tweesus Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:11 pm

    Dropping Lampard isn't going to happen in reality though.

    I probably didn't make myself clear but my 'trying out Milner there' was in reference to the likelihood of Barry getting injured at the WC and us needing to cover that position and the whole 'Carrick for england' debate. I was thinking that there's a possibility that we may not need to take Carrick if Milner can cover the position - although I can see that you would disagree with this given your retaining possession point.

    Fact of the matter is, with Ashley Cole probably lacking match fitness, we have to now take a reserve left back. This means that there isn't now a free position, ergo we cannot take five strikers. With Heskey struggling to play 90 minutes, my personal opinion is that taking 5 strikers might be quite handy.
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    Post by BoBo Vieri 32 Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:36 pm

    Rio England Braptain wrote:
    BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:Bernd

    Who did you have to suck off to get your ticket?

    That may be how it works in Lebanon, but here you can give someone money Ale

    So you gave someone money so you could suck them off?
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    Post by Sheffield gunner Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:42 pm

    Why is Egypt's 3-5-2 so successful - and how can England counter it?

    Most teams have abandoned three at the back for good reason, and by playing one up front Fabio Capello can expose its flaws
    ----------------

    Evolution is not a linear or a constant process, and there are times when small pockets of a previous age are left behind. Most of the world has long since abandoned 3-5-2, but for Egypt, who face England at Wembley on Wednesday, it remains very much alive. Their coach, Hassan Shehata, has experimented at times in friendlies with 4-4-2, but in competitive games, he has always used 3-5-2.

    Egypt's veteran captain, Ahmed Hassan, acknowledges that the rest of the world may have left 3-5-2 in the past, but – quite reasonably – asks what the point would be in changing when it continues to bring such success. "We are all comfortable in the system," he said. "We are an experienced team and we have played this way together for a long time."

    For six years under Shehata, to be precise, in which time they have never lost an Africa Cup of Nations game, lifting the trophy three times. So, if 3-5-2 is really outmoded, how can Egypt's continued success be explained?

    Egypt's system dissected

    Most obviously, the system suits the players they have. Sayed Moawad and Ahmed Fathy (or Ahmed El-Mohammady if Fathy is used as the holding midfielder) are fine attacking full-backs, both industrious and adept in the final third. Emad Motoeb is an unusual striker in that his prime virtue appears to be efficiency: he isn't especially quick, big or skilful, but he has been Egypt's one attacking constant in the last three Nations Cups, playing alongside Mido, then Amr Zaki then Mohamed Zidane; he probably needs to be partnered by somebody explosive or unpredictable. Hassan himself is a fine playmaker from the right side of a midfield trident, but probably needs the support of a holding player behind him and, now 34, he benefits from the ceaseless running of Hosny Abd Rabou.

    Tactical systems, of course, are designed to get the best out of the players available; at club level, when players can be bought to fill specific roles, managers can just about begin with a template and fit players into it; at national level tactics must always be mediated between what a manager may consider ideal and the resources he has.

    The other reason Egypt's 3-5-2 has been successful is the opposition. To begin with, Egypt are demonstrably well-organised – something enhanced by the familiarity brought about by six years playing together under the same manager, a continuity unthinkable in west Africa – while many of their opponents are a shambles. In Angola, only

    Egypt, Zambia and, after their first game, Ghana could take any credit for their discpline.

    Even those sides who do have a discernible shape have tended until very recently to play with two central strikers, which is precisely the system 3-5-2 was designed to counter. Wael Gomaa picks up one, Mahmoud Fathallah picks up the other, and Hany Said sweeps behind. That is changing – in Ghana two years ago, only Morocco and Guinea did

    not have a dual-striker system as their default; in Angola, only seven sides did.

    So how should England deal with Egypt's formation?

    If England use the 4-2-3-1 that carried them through qualifying, that should cause Egypt problems, providing they can overcome the difficulty of playing against a system they are unused to encountering. The logic of why 3-5-2 struggles to cope with a single striker is most simply put by Nelsinho Baptista, the experienced Brazilian coach who has developed software to explore the weaknesses of one system when matched against another. "Imagine Team A is playing 3-5-2 against Team B with a 4-5-1 that becomes 4-3-3," he said. "So Team A has to commit the wing-backs to deal with Team B's wingers. That means Team A is using five men to deal with three forwards.

    "In midfield Team A has three central midfielders against three, so the usual advantage of 3-5-2 against 4-4-2 is lost. Then at the front it is two forwards against four defenders, but the spare defenders are full-backs. One can push into midfield to create an extra man there, while still leaving three v two at the back. So Team B can dominate possession, and also has greater width."

    That, though, presupposes a certain quality from the wingers, and the truth is that African football – Egypt, who when fit can call on Mohamed Aboutrika and Mohamed Barakat, aside – is short of creators in general and wide creators in particular. If the winger cannot impose himself on the wing-back, then the wing-back can push the winger back, leaving the opponent's centre-forward isolated. If the wing-back is especially successful, he can effectively drive the opposing winger so far that he effectively occupies the same zone as his own full-back. That then means that the side using 3-5-2 can over-man in central midfield. That happens naturally when 3-5-2 plays 4-4-2, or, against 4-3-3, if the libero can step up to become an auxiliary midfielder, something at which Hany Said is adept.

    Notably, in the past two Cup of Nations finals, Egypt's opponents have switched formation to play with a lone forward. In Ghana, Cameroon played a 4-4-2 against Egypt in their first group game, were comprehensively outplayed, and were lucky to lose only 4-2. In the final, they switched to 4-2-3-1, and successfully frustrated Egypt

    before a Rigobert Song error gifted them victory. This year, Ghana similarly reshuffled their 4-4-2 to 4-2-3-1, and effectively countered Egypt until a late Mohamed Nagui winner. In both cases, Egypt, although the better team, struggled to find any rhythm, and might have been in trouble against sides of greater potency.

    So where have Africa's creators gone?

    That then raises the issue of where the creators have gone; why west Africa has, in a generation, not produced a player like Jay-Jay Okocha or Abedi Pele. Okocha blames the attempt to impose discipline and adopt a "European model", but that has not prevented European nations from producing gifted creators. Manchester United's scout in Africa, Tom Vernon, who runs an academy in the hills above Accra, suggests that the fault lies partly with European clubs, who tend to have what he terms "the Papa Bouba Diop template" in mind. The African players who have succeeded in Europe in the past have usually been big and robust, and so clubs look only for something similar. Players called up by European clubs at a young age develop faster and have a higher profile, and so it is they who make it into the national team.

    Vernon also believes the way the game is first played by children - at least in Ghana - has a tendency to shape them as driving central midfielders. "Look at how kids play," he said. "They have a pitch maybe twenty or thirty yards long, and set up two stones a couple of feet apart at either end, often with gutters or ditches marking the boundaries at the sides. So it's a tiny area. The game becomes all about receiving the ball, turning and driving through the middle."

    To put Egypt's success down to the failures of others would be unfair, for this is a highly gifted generation of players led by a very fine coach, but one of the great frustrations of their repeated failures to qualify for the World Cup is that the side that has dominated recent African football has not been able to test itself against the rest of the world. Their victory over Italy in the Confederations Cup last summer suggested the potential they have.

    Will the lessons that England learn tomorrow night be useful for the World Cup?

    It's hard to say how useful tomorrow's game at Wembley will be in preparing for the World Cup group game against Algeria, who began the Cup of Nations with three at the back but rapidly switched to a back four having been beaten 3-0 by Malawi. The Rangers centre-back Madjid Bougherra admitted he didn't know whether Algeria would use a three or a four at the World Cup, but he preference was for a four, on the grounds that the relationship between defenders is easier to establish in the more familiar system.

    For England, it is probably as well to have the experience; for Egypt, Wednesday's game is, as Hassan put it, "a big country to put on our CVs, a big game in our history", and another chance to show that, even with their anachronistic formation, they might have made an impression had they reached the World Cup.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2010/mar/02/the-question-egypt-england-three-defence
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    Post by 110% Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:46 pm

    sorry but is egypt's 3-5-2 system successful? I thought they didn't qualify for the world cup
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    Post by Aristoskank Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:52 pm

    Tweesus wrote:Dropping Lampard isn't going to happen in reality though.

    I'm praying he's the one who gets the inevitable metatarsal injury.

    I probably didn't make myself clear but my 'trying out Milner there' was in reference to the likelihood of Barry getting injured at the WC and us needing to cover that position and the whole 'Carrick for england' debate. I was thinking that there's a possibility that we may not need to take Carrick if Milner can cover the position - although I can see that you would disagree with this given your retaining possession point.

    Barry can play LB if necessary, I say take Cole and one other LB. If we are going to play Gerrard as a sort of AML cutting in then the other LB should be Baines because he's better going forward than Warnock.

    Fact of the matter is, with Ashley Cole probably lacking match fitness, we have to now take a reserve left back. This means that there isn't now a free position, ergo we cannot take five strikers. With Heskey struggling to play 90 minutes, my personal opinion is that taking 5 strikers might be quite handy.

    I don't see Heskey as a starting striker, I see him as a big man to throw on and thus he and Crouch are competing for the same spot. Don't think Capello sees it like that.
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    Post by Isco Benny Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:12 pm

    BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:
    Rio England Braptain wrote:
    BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:Bernd

    Who did you have to suck off to get your ticket?

    That may be how it works in Lebanon, but here you can give someone money Ale

    So you gave someone money so you could suck them off?

    No, to watch the game.

    I can see the concept of buying a ticket and going to watch your team play is alien to you.

    Sexual favours are not mandatory. Despite what your dad told you the last time he took you to a game.

    By the way, is Bobo off to see his beloved Italy anytime soon? And what about Inter?

    If not, which I expect, you can look on the bright side: all that free time to memorise more footballing statistics for your next argument Ale
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    Post by Isco Benny Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:34 pm

    Allez les rouges wrote:I'm not on the windup Bernd. When I say "the last chance" I mean last chance to properly try a different option (i.e. with time to spare). Now you may very well be right, and I only get to see England games when there isn't a clash, but I do find it difficult to believe that the averageness of Heskey is something that can't be improved upon. If you reckon you can find three in midfield who can get enough of a hold on the game and two decent wide men then surely it's an option at least worth trying? And for that matter crowbarring Lampard and Gerrard into the same team is something that's still going on and will tomorrow, despite Gerrard's poor form.

    If an attacking midfield option of Müller, Kroos, Marin, Özil, Schweinsteiger, Trochowski, Jansen, Hunt, Podolski... doesn't "blow your socks off" I'm not sure what will Wink

    Bit of a delay in responding to you Allez,

    I'm not suggesting you're on the wind-up you old goat.

    You make a good point.

    The conundrum though is this - it is important that Rooney sees as much of the ball as possible when playing for England.

    When he plays in a 4-4-2 and not as a lone man in a 4-5-1, he gets more touches of the ball in a position facing goal rather than with his back to it.

    Secondly, although he has been successful playing as a lone striker for Man United, England don't have (proven) wingers who can do the job that Valencia and Giggs/Nani have done, which is get the ball into the area from wide positions and get him attacking the ball rather than just holding it up.

    The likes of Lennon./Joe Cole may be able to do this, but it's not been successfully proven yet. Perhaps a plan B option rather than one from kick off. For now, Rooney needs to play with another striker, as this is what he has done throughout qualifying and I can't see Fabio making a such a big tactical change a few months before the WC.

    The issue of Heskey - Of course he is very average if you consider him as one solitary player.

    But since Rooney is clearly going to be the player we're relying on to make a difference, he needs a partner who will get him into the game as much as possible.

    Being mobile, strong and capable of holding the ball up, Heskey has his uses and has proven that in qualifying.

    Rooney would not have scored 15 goals in the group had it not been for Heskey understanding his selfless role for the team.

    Ideally we'd have a player who can do this AND provide an attacking threat.

    Carlton Cole seems to be, in the long term, that man. But he's not had much chance to prove he can do it because of injuries.

    Crouch is too immobile and weak, Defoe too selfish, Agbonlahor has not the physical presence.

    It's not ideal, but preferable in my opinion than the alternative option of playing Rooney up top on his own and risk him having his back to goal and totally isolated as we struggle to get him into the game.
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    Post by debaser Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:56 pm

    Agbonlahor may not have the height so much, but has definitely bulked up & his hold-up play has been his big improvement this season.

    Surprised Capello isn't giving him another chance, as I thought he did well in previous appearances for England (including once partnering Rooney, iirc).
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    Post by Tweesus Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:59 pm

    Might well be an attitude issue?

    Regardless of him bulking up, he's in competition for the Defoe/Rooney role.
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    Post by Allez les rouges Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:59 pm

    I agree it should be a Plan B in the absence of proven wide men or even a midfield that would be much good at keeping the ball at international level, just that if I were an England fan/coach I'd be interested in trying it out. I also like the Joe Cole behind Rooney suggestion, would be a great shame if the former ends up missing out on the World Cup altogether.

    Would definitely want to watch this one if it didn't clash with Germany-Argentina and for that matter France-Spain Erm

    Oh and Bernd, read your exchange with Bobo on the Euro Cups board with ever-widening eyes and the occasional disbelieving chuckle, good stuff Smile

    (V interesting article SG too, cheers)
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    Post by debaser Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:15 pm

    Tweesus wrote:Might well be an attitude issue?

    Regardless of him bulking up, he's in competition for the Defoe/Rooney role.

    Well, I'm saying I think he could play alongside Rooney/Defoe. He's somewhere between the two groups - not a natural finisher like Defoe, but he is bigger/stronger, so would perhaps be able to partner..

    I don't think we need Heskey AND Cole AND Crouch - Agbonlahor would seem a far better option to have on the bench as 5th striker, to throw on against a tired/slower defence, but guess Capello don't see it that way.

    Never heard anything bad about Agbonlahor in attitude terms. He occasionally looks a little lazy - but that might more be tiredness 'cause he plays every goddamn minute for us!
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    Post by Isco Benny Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:20 pm

    Allez les rouges wrote:I agree it should be a Plan B in the absence of proven wide men or even a midfield that would be much good at keeping the ball at international level, just that if I were an England fan/coach I'd be interested in trying it out. I also like the Joe Cole behind Rooney suggestion, would be a great shame if the former ends up missing out on the World Cup altogether.

    Would definitely want to watch this one if it didn't clash with Germany-Argentina and for that matter France-Spain Erm

    Oh and Bernd, read your exchange with Bobo on the Euro Cups board with ever-widening eyes and the occasional disbelieving chuckle, good stuff Smile

    (V interesting article SG too, cheers)

    Would certainly like to see England try something new tomorrow. So close to the WC now though means I seriously doubt Capello will try anything massively different.

    One thing Capello deserves credit for is that he has given players the chance. Why he has lost faith in some (such as Ashley Young for example) though no one knows. He'll be getting a big cheer from me solely for stripping Terry of his captaincy Ale

    Germany-Argentina will be on record at home. I am looking forward to seeing the likes of Ozil and Kroos commencing their journey of WORLD DOMINATION :-)

    Bobo and I are getting along like a house on fire. I've certainly wasted a lot of time pursuing our personal duels which I'm not proud of, but can't deny it hasn't been fun.

    If only everyone could be as charming as Otto. Alas, he's a special egg Ale
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    Post by Tweesus Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:44 pm

    debaser wrote:I don't think we need Heskey AND Cole AND Crouch - Agbonlahor would seem a far better option to have on the bench as 5th striker, to throw on against a tired/slower defence, but guess Capello don't see it that way.


    I agree. There's not really too much of a need for three big and beefy point strikers, but many have noted that Heskey has been struggling for fitness this season -and Crouch does offer something slightly different to a Heskey/CC type striker. That said, I'd rather turn to pace later on in the game than I would throwing Crouch on and watching our centre backs lump it up to him.
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    Post by debaser Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:50 pm

    It'll be interesting to see if Crouch gets much football now Pav has started scoring. I think he's already the most vulnerable, as not sure Capello rates him too highly (left him out of some squads) and being sat on the bench for Spurs could knock him out of the WC squad.

    Of course, injuries could change these choices anyhow. Still 3 months to go.
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    Post by Brian2468 Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:56 pm

    Either way you look our biggest weakness is in the middle our best players do not match the best with other top national sides, Capello uses a player like Heskey so the center can function properly.

    Changing this kind of striker will squash our chances. Carlton Cole should be tried out, Crouch or Defoe will never be able to manage the job.

    The Boss has a system in place he needs to strengthen it and duplicate the player roles in the squad if Heskey is not fit and C.Cole cannot fit that slot England will not be a intimidating side at the WC me thinks and know. Basketball

    This plan 'B' business will still have to be built around his system it cannot change there is not enough time to practice a totally different game plan. Other options still remain to change a game within the squad if needed.
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    Post by Isco Benny Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:03 pm

    Should England play 3-5-2 Brian? Laughing
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    Post by BoBo Vieri 32 Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:13 pm

    Rio England Braptain wrote:Should England play 3-5-2 Brian? Laughing

    England should play your fav formation, the xmas tree.
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    Post by Isco Benny Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:32 pm

    BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:
    Rio England Braptain wrote:Should England play 3-5-2 Brian? Laughing

    England should play your fav formation, the xmas tree.

    Like the number 10 shirt of Argentina in honour of Maradonna,

    the Xmas tree formation should be officially "retired" from English football in

    honour of Terry Venables.

    The good old days of horrible grey shirts and Gazza with blonde hair. Sigh
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    Post by BoBo Vieri 32 Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:37 pm

    Rio England Braptain wrote:
    BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:
    Rio England Braptain wrote:Should England play 3-5-2 Brian? Laughing

    England should play your fav formation, the xmas tree.

    Like the number 10 shirt of Argentina in honour of Maradonna,

    the Xmas tree formation should be officially "retired" from English football in

    honour of Terry Venables.

    The good old days of horrible grey shirts and Gazza with blonde hair. Sigh

    Rooney
    Gerrard Lampard
    Barry Carrick *someone*
    Cole Terry *NOT Rio* Johnson
    James

    If Hargreaves was fit he could take that other midfield position. But most importantly it allows Gerrard and Lampard to play in their best positions, while Rooney has shown he can play as a lone striker this season.
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    Post by Brian2468 Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:45 pm

    3-5-2 best system in the world .... bar none!!!!!! Fucking magic system, unbelievable way to play blows everything out of the water, Best thing since Sliced Bread, Eight wonder of the world and its not a German invention...... Fighting
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    Post by Isco Benny Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:48 pm

    BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:
    Rio England Braptain wrote:
    BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:
    Rio England Braptain wrote:Should England play 3-5-2 Brian? Laughing

    England should play your fav formation, the xmas tree.

    Like the number 10 shirt of Argentina in honour of Maradonna,

    the Xmas tree formation should be officially "retired" from English football in

    honour of Terry Venables.

    The good old days of horrible grey shirts and Gazza with blonde hair. Sigh

    Rooney
    Gerrard Lampard
    Barry Carrick *someone*
    Cole Terry *NOT Rio* Johnson
    James

    If Hargreaves was fit he could take that other midfield position. But most importantly it allows Gerrard and Lampard to play in their best positions, while Rooney has shown he can play as a lone striker this season.

    Look at that perfect symmetry.

    It's a damn sexy formation.

    That cannot be denied
    avatar
    Brian2468


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    Post by Brian2468 Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:49 pm

    Johnson is a 100% 3-5-2 player but not in the position BoBo has him above in the christmas flop.
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    Brian2468


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    Post by Brian2468 Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:52 pm

    Rio England Braptain wrote:
    BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:
    Rio England Braptain wrote:
    BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:
    Rio England Braptain wrote:Should England play 3-5-2 Brian? Laughing

    England should play your fav formation, the xmas tree.

    Like the number 10 shirt of Argentina in honour of Maradonna,

    the Xmas tree formation should be officially "retired" from English football in

    honour of Terry Venables.

    The good old days of horrible grey shirts and Gazza with blonde hair. Sigh

    Rooney
    Gerrard Lampard
    Barry Carrick *someone*
    Cole Terry *NOT Rio* Johnson
    James

    If Hargreaves was fit he could take that other midfield position. But most importantly it allows Gerrard and Lampard to play in their best positions, while Rooney has shown he can play as a lone striker this season.

    Look at that perfect symmetry.

    It's a damn sexy formation.

    That cannot be denied

    Johnson can fit that right place best all around right player we have.


    Last edited by Brian2468 on Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by BoBo Vieri 32 Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:52 pm

    Brian2468 wrote:Johnson is a 100% 3-5-2 player but not in the position BoBo has him above in the christmas flop.

    Why not? he'd have a DM covering for him whenever he goes forward.
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    Post by Brian2468 Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:55 pm

    BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:
    Brian2468 wrote:Johnson is a 100% 3-5-2 player but not in the position BoBo has him above in the christmas flop.

    Why not? he'd have a DM covering for him whenever he goes forward.

    True but england or liverpool would get more out of him if he was not a right back he is not the best player defensively.

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