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    Brazil Vs Argentina official match thread

    Luis
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    Post by Luis Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:55 pm

    Who's gonna win then? Biggrin

    My money is on the Argie's since it has been from the start, this Brazil side is good but just not that good, The Argentines just have so many class players and even class players to bring off the Bench

    My Prediction

    Argentina 3-1 Brazil

    Brazil Vs Argentina official match thread Mascherano_javier Brazil Vs Argentina official match thread 36_juan_riquelme


    Brazil Vs Argentina official match thread _41800732_robinho_getty300
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    Post by Rosicky Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:57 pm

    whats wrong with the copa thread?

    and the match is tomorrow night.

    Ps. Argies will win 3-0.
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    Post by Luis Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:58 pm

    This is the final and thus deserves it's own thread.

    And I know it's tomorrow, but it's the build up innit
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    Post by TM Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:03 pm

    Brazil 2 - 1 Argies.
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    Post by mongrel hawk Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:35 pm

    Argentina 8 - 1 Brazil


    seriously now:

    arg 3 - 1 bra


    Last edited by on Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by DS Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:38 pm

    I think Argies will win this one 2-1.
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    Post by Juligen Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:23 pm

    Oh dear................... this is gonna be painful Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad
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    Post by blutgraetsche Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:44 pm

    Don't you worry juligen, Vagner Luuuv has everything under control. He saved the best for last!
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    Post by DD Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:48 pm

    Dutch site says this will be Dunga's team for the final

    Doel: Doni;

    Verdediging: Maicon, Alex, Juan, Gilberto;

    Middenveld: Mineiro, Josué, Elano, Julio Baptista;

    Aanval: Wagner Love en Robinho.

    http://www.vi.nl/vi/show/id=62802/contentid=94758/msnhome=true/sc=66342f

    Afonso won't start despite him leading the Brazil reserves to win over the Brazil XI during training. Laughing No
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    Post by mongrel hawk Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:49 pm

    I said 3 - 1, but I won't be surprised if Brazil wins, as I wouldn't be surprised if Uruguay had beaten Brazil. That's a clássico.

    But if I could choose a score, it would be Argentina 8 - 0 or something. We're talking about South Africa here. Beating the Argies may cost us the world cup.
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    Post by blutgraetsche Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:50 pm

    The 'reserves' won because Diego was playing for them, that's all. Razz


    What a shame that he still gets benched, hope Dunga catches fleas in his crotch.
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    Post by mongrel hawk Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:51 pm

    that's it.

    if Afonso starts and Brazil lose, the whole country and national press will bash Dunga for choosing a "mediocre" striker like Afonso. sad but true.

    Vagner Love was good for Palmeiras, so...


    DD wrote:Dutch site says this will be Dunga's team for the final

    Doel: Doni;

    Verdediging: Maicon, Alex, Juan, Gilberto;

    Middenveld: Mineiro, Josué, Elano, Julio Baptista;

    Aanval: Wagner Love en Robinho.

    http://www.vi.nl/vi/show/id=62802/contentid=94758/msnhome=true/sc=66342f

    Afonso won't start despite him leading the Brazil reserves to win over the Brazil XI during training. Laughing No
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    Post by DD Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:01 pm

    mongrel hawk wrote:that's it.

    if Afonso starts and Brazil lose, the whole country and national press will bash Dunga for choosing a "mediocre" striker like Afonso. sad but true.
    At this point in the tournament its a lose-lose situation for Afonso: if he performs it will be waved away, if he fails to score he'll be the scapegoat.
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    Post by blutgraetsche Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:10 am

    Afonso might end up in Bremen, that's why I don't want him to play (and do well), will just increase his price. Razz
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    Post by Mexicanbecks Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:01 am

    2-0 argentina
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    Post by Juligen Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:47 am

    blutgraetsche wrote:Don't you worry juligen, Vagner Luuuv has everything under control. He saved the best for last!


    I REALLY dont know if i laugh or cry with this joke.

    mongrel hawk wrote:I said 3 - 1, but I won't be surprised if Brazil wins, as I wouldn't be surprised if Uruguay had beaten Brazil. That's a clássico.

    But if I could choose a score, it would be Argentina 8 - 0 or something. We're talking about South Africa here. Beating the Argies may cost us the world cup.

    I agree with this, my heart wants a victory but my brain KNOWS that Dunga is not the man to leads us in a WC. He would be a disaster. pale
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    Post by mongrel hawk Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:35 am

    my brain wants Brazil losing. my heart wants Tevez destroying Brazil. but there is also a part of my brain that wants to see the pundits faces if Brazil win.


    juligen21 wrote:
    blutgraetsche wrote:Don't you worry juligen, Vagner Luuuv has everything under control. He saved the best for last!


    I REALLY dont know if i laugh or cry with this joke.

    mongrel hawk wrote:I said 3 - 1, but I won't be surprised if Brazil wins, as I wouldn't be surprised if Uruguay had beaten Brazil. That's a clássico.

    But if I could choose a score, it would be Argentina 8 - 0 or something. We're talking about South Africa here. Beating the Argies may cost us the world cup.

    I agree with this, my heart wants a victory but my brain KNOWS that Dunga is not the man to leads us in a WC. He would be a disaster. pale


    Last edited by on Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by Puro Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:21 am

    This Final runs the risk of being a very slow game because the organizers moved up the kickoff time to accomodate Europe's audience.

    It's gonna be HOT and very humid. I already see a very tense chess game with both teams trying to save energy. The conditions will be brutal at the start, and the temperature will only drop late in the second half.

    I see a 0-0 game until very late in the game. <Ale>
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    Post by fcb Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:54 am

    Good analysis Puro. I think the same, except there's a chance of Messi/Tevez or Robinho forcing a mistake from the opposition defenders, esp. in the case of the former against the Brazilians who are shaky at the back. If there is a goal early, then the match will change.
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    Post by Rez Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:56 pm

    Argentine trident set to strike
    The Copa America has served up a tantalising final between Argentina and Brazil, who are second-favourites for once.
    Amy LawrenceJuly 14, 2007 12:00 AM
    Good news for those of us who have slept through the majority of the Copa America, thus missing out on the delights of a goalfest performed in front of eager Venezuelan crowds and earnestly analysed by Trevor Francis and Paul Merson at 3am. Tonight's final takes place at the perfectly watchable time of 10pm in Britain. Judging by the spectacle that has preceded it, snore through this one at your peril.

    Aside from the basic attraction of any game that brings together Brazil and Argentina, the undisputed heavyweights of the South American game, the sheer electricity of Argentina's football demands attention. They snap passes around the pitch like little lightning bolts. They dash past opponents in a blur. They love to be audacious, as demonstrated by the fact all three goals they conjured to beat Mexico in the semi-final derived from mischievous chips. There has been a buzz around all their matches that suggests this team are a bit special. Brazil, who are robustly defending the title they have won three times in the past four tournaments, must be thrilled with that notion.

    Mind you, haven't we been here before with Argentina? Only a year ago eulogising about their aesthetics was an irresistible temptation. Who could forget that goal against Serbia, when Esteban Cambiasso rounded off a jaw-dropping series of 26 passes? They were a seductive bet to win the 2006 World Cup, but fell short against the fired-up Germans in the quarter-final. For the third World Cup in a row Argentina went home prematurely, accompanied by the usual soul-searching, as the rest of us wondered how they managed to let themselves down when they were capable of such high arts.

    An entire generation of Argentine players have never won anything on the international stage. Their last major silverware came 14 years ago, the tail end of an era when the country's footballing CV sparkled: World Cup winners 1986, World Cup runners-up 1990, Copa America winners 1991 and 1993.

    Alfio Basile, coach of those last two triumphs and back in charge for his second stint in impressive fashion, does not need to motivate his current charges about what is at stake tonight against Brazil. They know. The urge to be winners is overwhelming.

    Basile had originally intended to select domestic players for this Copa, but was persuaded to pick a full-strength squad, including the young upstarts making such waves in Europe, Lionel Messi and Carlos Tevez.

    Nobody has cried off with fatigue, as Kaka and Ronaldinho did at the prospect of a tough summer tournament when their bodies were feeling the burn of a post-World Cup season.

    But it is not just the veterans of Argentina's squad, such as wiry defender Roberto Ayala, who is approaching his 116th cap, who are desperate to beat Brazil. As Tevez quipped about the opportunity for Copa America success this summer: 'I don't want a vacation.'

    There has been a shift of ideas under Basile, whose philosophy is not just about winning, but winning stylishly. Where his predecessor Jose Pekerman's downfall was crystallised by a negative substitution at the World Cup, when he withdrew playmaker Juan Roman Riquelme for the more defensive Cambiasso, Basile's Copa team have become increasingly attacking as this tournament has progressed.

    They have evolved a strategy brave enough to accommodate a dazzling attacking trident of Riquelme just behind Messi and Tevez. They have no big man up front. No target, particularly since Hernan Crespo limped out of the group game against Colombia with a torn thigh muscle. The youngsters hurl themselves into dynamic dribbles, while the brains behind the operation drifts around picking out wise passes. In fact the sceptics who cannot see how Tevez and Wayne Rooney could blend together for Manchester United would do well to study how Argentina's system suits Tevez and Messi. It is a joy to watch, and has produced an exceptional return of 16 goals from five games so far.

    If there is a hint of the Harlem Globetrotters about the front line, the lack of pace in defence is there to be exposed by Brazil. Javier Mascherano's legwork in the midfield protection role is crucial.

    The Brazilians are also under new management, and have a different edge to them under Dunga. Without Kaka and Ronaldinho, who were joined on the list of striking absentees by Ronaldo and Adriano, there is considerable onus on the new generation to provide some fantasy. Robinho has scored consistently, but Brazil's progress has been based on toughness too.

    'To be a winning team, you have to know how to suffer,' said Dunga at the end of Brazil's close encounter with Uruguay in the semi-finals, which required some nervy penalties to settle it. 'In the most difficult moment, you have to have posture, courage and fight until the end. I want to thank the players because they left their families behind to come here and play in a very difficult competition. We have been together for nearly one month and their behaviour has been exemplary throughout. They have shown great dedication, effort and love for the shirt of Brazil. All this has been after a long and tiring season in Europe.'

    It is partly a reflection on those who did not come, and partly confirmation of how good Basile's group are, but the average football fan could easily name more of Argentina's team than of Brazil's. That has not happened in a while.

    The rivalry between the two has always been intense. A so-called friendly match in 1920 featured only eight players on each side after several Brazilians refused to play because an Argentine newspaper had called them macaquitos - little monkeys - in reference to their darker skins and after a notoriously bitter incident in 1946, when the Argentine captain suffered a vicious double leg-break, players and police scrapped on the pitch and fans rushed down from the terraces to join in. As a consequence, the two teams went to great lengths to make sure they did not cross paths for a decade.

    The last time these two met, in a friendly at the Emirates Stadium in London last summer, there was no damage except to Argentine pride. They were embarrassed by the men in yellow shirts. The coup de grace in a 3-0 demolition was delivered by Kaka, who sashayed from one penalty area to the other to score a pearl of a goal. The Argentine defenders gave up and just stood around, watching. Of course there is no Kaka this time, and there will be no slackness permitted on any corner of the pitch.

    Tonight's final is the absolute antidote to the other football show taking place in the Americas this weekend. The choice between David Beckham being wheeled out on a red carpet or a highly charged battle of Brazilian and Argentine wits is not too taxing.

    Tonight's showdown will be the tenth final between these rivals in the 91-year history of the South American championship. Basile's description in anticipation of the game is enticing stuff: 'It's the last link in the chain and playing in a gran clásico against Brazil is the greatest.'

    http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/07/14/argentine_trident_set_to_strik.html
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    Post by Rez Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:02 pm

    Argentina ensure Copa runs over with skill and style

    Argentina must be favourites against Brazil in the Copa America final if they can display the verve that has characterised their tournament.

    Richard WilliamsJuly 14, 2007 12:00 AM


    Argentina's long wait for a 15th Copa América victory is likely to end tomorrow night if they can maintain the form shown in the previous rounds of the competition when they meet Brazil in the final in Maracaibo, Venezuela. The 63-year-old Alfio Basile, who returned as Argentina's head coach after last summer's World Cup disaster, will send out a combination of veterans and young stars to confront a side managed by Carlos Dunga and a win would reinforce the views of those who believe them to be currently the best side in international football.

    While Dunga's patchwork Brazil were fortunate to make it to the final after beating Uruguay in a shoot-out decided by a penalty that should have been retaken, Argentina swept past Mexico with the kind of imperious performance that has characterised them during the past month. A 3-0 victory, crowned by a superlative goal from Lionel Messi, kept up their average of three goals a game, maintained despite the loss of Hernán Crespo, their chief striker, to injury early in the tournament.

    Basile was in charge of Argentina for their last two wins in the Copa América, in 1991 and 1993. When the call came to take over the national side from José Pekerman in the summer of 2006, he was celebrating a season in which he had led Boca Juniors to victories in the domestic championship and the South American super cup.

    His squad for Venezuela included one major surprise: the return of Juan Sebastián Verón. Thoroughly discredited in English eyes after his expensive and unsuccessful periods with Manchester United and Chelsea, Verón returned to Argentina last year and, at the age of 32, guided Estudiantes de la Plata, his first club, to the league title. Basile uses him as a kind of midfield pivot, a role that does not expose his lack of pace.

    Juan Román Riquelme, another prodigal son, is Basile's playmaker. After returning to Boca on loan from Villarreal in January, Riquelme has enjoyed an outstanding season. For Argentina he is playing slightly ahead of Verón, with Esteban Cambiasso and Javier Mascherano sitting back at the base of the midfield, while the defence rests on the experience of Roberto Ayala, Javier Zanetti and a rejuvenated Gabriel Heinze. The composition of the attack, however, was more problematic when Crespo was ruled out. Looking for the right man to play alongside Messi, Basile tried a couple of experiments before settling on Carlos Tevez, who came on at half-time in the quarter-final against Peru, when the match was goalless, and lit the fuse of a 4-0 victory. Starting the semi-final against Mexico, he played a vital role once again.

    But it was Messi's goal, the gentlest of chips over the head and under the crossbar of Oswaldo Sánchez, that sent Argentina's supporters into delirium. Unlike Pekerman, Basile had no qualms about thrusting the 20-year-old into his starting line-up and the reward has come with a series of spellbinding moments from the Barcelona forward.

    As Messi and Tevez add the final touches to short-passing combinations that cover the entire width and length of the pitch, they evoke the memory of the great goal scored by Argentina against Serbia and Montenegro last summer, when Cambiasso's shot completed a mesmerising 24-pass move. Under Basile they appear intent on turning that resplendent moment into a basic approach.

    Brazil will face the challenge lacking not just Ronaldinho and Kaká, who preferred to go on holiday rather than take part in the tournament, but also Gilberto Silva, their captain, whose late caution against Uruguay excludes him from the final. So far, apart from an early hat-trick by the inconsistent Robinho, Brazil have done little to impress; perhaps only Diego, the little midfielder from Werder Bremen, and Doni, their athletic goalkeeper, would stand a chance of inclusion in Argentina's line-up.

    Nor does the excellence of Basile's side look like a flash in the pan. In Canada, where the Under-20 World Cup is taking place, the junior Argentina side beat Poland 3-1 on Friday night to reach the quarter-finals thanks to a performance distinguished by the same elegant, patient, rhythmical interplay, with the gifted forwards Sergio Agüero of Atlético Madrid and Angel Di María of Rosario Central playing the parts of Tevez and Messi. After a troubled time, in which a ruined economy played its part, Argentina are finally emerging from the shadows

    http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/07/14/argentina_ensure_copa_runs_ove.html
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    Post by Torrente Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:31 pm

    When it comes to Argentina - Brasil, I will always bet for Brasil. Even in moments like these, where all the odds seem to be stacked up against them, Brasil generally comes on top when they play Argentina.

    In recent memory people will remember the 3-0, but a few years back Brasil also spanked Argentina 4-1 in the Confederations Cup final. They also beat Argentina in the Copa final last time with their under-23 team. I know they were outplayed for large parts of the game, but that was the least one would expect.

    Brasil will go out for blood today. Even if Argentinians hate Brasilians more than Brasilians hate Argentinians, the Samba boys will be fired up enough to snatch it away. Even Vagner Love could have a good game.

    There's nothing more pleasing to the Brasilians than beating Argentina or watching Argentina fail in something. The Brasilians know how much damage a win tonight will cause Argentina. Without their 2 biggest stars, an awful coach, and Vagner Love leading the attack, a win would be the equivalent of bitch-slapping them back to Buenos Aires.
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    Post by DD Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:50 pm

    Brazil always do well when they're the underdogs (bare with me: as in not the favourites) or have the hunger.
    Its when they stroll on the pitch thinking they already have things wrapped up is when they do badly and dissapoint. Ussually when they've been playing really well or have just won a cup previously.
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    Post by Rez Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:15 pm

    It's tango meets samba on the petrodollar stage

    Brazil versus Argentina is the ultimate superclasico; so Sunday's Copa América final between the pair should be spectacular.

    Marcela Mora y AraujoJuly 13, 2007 3:19 PM


    After the World Cup both Argentina and Brazil appointed new managers for their national squads. In early September, both countries clashed at the Emirates Stadium in London. In order to maximise profits from friendlies both countries signed long-term deals with Russian companies. The new stadium was the perfect setting to make the most of their respective mass appeal.

    Alfio Basile of Argentina took a few days' leave from his club commitments to fly over and 'meet' some players. Dunga, of Brazil, had played one friendly already. Brazil put three past Argentina and Basile shrugged of the defeat: "There was never much I would be able to do in two days," he said. "My objective is the Copa América".

    In the car park inside the stadium, while some players meandered through the mixed zone, Argentinian officials chewed over the particulars of the result. "Who is Elano?" they asked, referring to the player who had struck first. Some hacks echoed the sentiment. This snippet serves to illustrate the fact that Brazil has a knack for delivering endless streams of young unkowns who can dance around established professionals with ease.

    Fast forward to the Copa América final, which will be staged this Sunday in Venezuela. Both countries are to meet once again - and this a'int no friendly. Argentina v Brazil or Brazil v Argentina is the ultimate superclasico. Other than perhaps England, no rival means so much to Argentinians. Encounters on the pitch in one part of the world have lead to unsavoury explosive acts on the other, such as the time when Brazilian flags were burnt outside the embassy in Buenos Aires during Italia 90, and the knife attacks against Argentinians in Brazil during Mexico 86. A minority of morons misbehaving happens almost all the time around football matches, but in the case of these two giants of world football it serves to illustrate the fact that for both nations, the game is more than just a game.

    "Football is the one area in which we can compete with the big nations of the world as equals," Daniel Passarella told me once, while he was manager of Argentina. Interestingly, Passarella had been appointed to replace Basile following the fiasco of USA 94.

    Until Maradona's ephedrine incident killed the dream, Basile had put together a squad of traditional Argentinian passes and touches which had picked up the Copa America in 1993; for a while in the US they looked like they had what it takes.

    Passarella's task, above all else, was to break away from the bad image left and reinstate a sense of order and discipline. Argentina have come a long way since then, picking up a string of World Youth Cups, Olympic successes and Fair Play awards to great national acclaim. In Brazil's case, they do not compete around the world as equals, but rather as superiors. 'Brazil' in football speak has almost become an umbrella term for "the beautiful game". Few teams emerge from the tunnel to face the joga bonito clan without a trembling sensation that they're on their way out of whichever tournament it may be.

    The myth that Brazil only like to win if they play well is one I've never bought into personally, but that they often win is unquestionable. It is not without irony that this year the Copa América sees Brazil defend their trophy on the back of dubious penalties and defensive playing - at direct odds with joga bonito.

    Dunga has been quoted praising Argentina in both the Brazilian and Argentinian press, and what we have heard over and over again in the UK is that Kaka and Ronaldinho are not there. Although Robinho has been in my view lethal, as has been Julio Baptista, and captain Gilberto Silva is a player of considerable pedigree (though he's out for the final), the consensus seems to be that their squad is in some senses a 'B' team. Yet still, they have made it to the last round, and without doubt are a force to be reckoned with.

    Argentina, on the other hand, traditionally holders of the reputation of tricksters and rule benders, have been passing gently and with a big grin, hailed by even the most jingoistic British commentators as displaying "everything football is about". Argentinian papers have been pondering the significance of the hug and the chip, in a thoughtful, loving way and compiling lists of the 10 keys to success which include patience, group spirit, experience and knowing how to be loved.

    Argentina's squad is full of world-class names, including 33-year-old Javier Zanetti and 32-year-old Juan Sebastian Veron, both returning to the national side after being left out of the World Cup. Juan Román Riquelme, who retired from international football after the summer, has also returned, enjoying a boost of confidence. Carlos Tevez is tirelessly charging on, sharing a room with the young darling of world press at the moment Lionel Messi. Javier Mascherano and Gabriel Heinze, essentially defensive players from the Premiership, have both been scoring goals. The captain and veteran Roberto Ayala stands firm in his position, and his aide Gabriel Milito relishes a future in Barcelona when the summer is over.

    But they are sharing column inches with the Under-20s' achievements in the World Cup - 'El Kun' Agüero, Argentina's answer to Elano back at the Emirates in September, is celebrating his goal with arms spread out in flight on today's front pages. In April 1957, one of Argentina's most revered international sides, known as the Carasucias, won the tournament with the likes of Omar Sivori, beating Pele's Brazil. With the motto 'ganar, gustar, golear' (to win, to delight, to go goal crazy) the Carasucias are legendary, true Argentinian-style heroes.

    Although this was by no means the only significant encounter between both countries, the half century since the event marks an anniversary worth remembering. It would be great if a new Carasucias emerged this year and beat Brazil with the magic and beauty they have been displaying so far. Brazil would retain their position as world giants and enter the annals of history with dignity, safe in the knowledge that all that happened in 2007 was that Kaka and Ronaldinho weren't there.
    Super Progress
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    Post by Super Progress Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:22 pm


    <H2>Copa final classic ahead



    Argentina win over Brazil would benefit both teams

    </H2>
    Tim Vickery
    MARACAIBO, Venezuela -- It's Argentina against Brazil once more in the final of the Copa América, and time for another clash of South American styles between the continent's big two.
    In the intense heat Sunday afternoon here, the pattern of the game looks entirely predictable:
    Argentina will pass, pass and pass again, attempt to dictate the rhythm from centerfield and wear its opponents down for the second-half onslaught. Brazil will make its effort in sudden bursts, breaking forward with terrifying speed and power, and will also offer a threat from free kicks and corners, either with direct strikes at goal or with its array of giants attacking the ball played into the box.
    South America's major powers used to be more similar in their approach to the game. Argentine soccer put more emphasis on the pass, while Brazil stressed the dribble -- but there was a time when they had much more in common than the teams of Alfio Basile and Dunga that will square off on Sunday.
    The roads started to diverge after the 1974 World Cup in West Germany, where South America was shocked to find itself rendered obsolete by the clockwork orange from Holland. Much has been made of the Dutch and their "total football," with its constant interchanging of positions when in possession.
    What is often overlooked is the pressure they put their opponents under when they wanted to get the ball back. The South Americans were accustomed to having time on the ball -- to looking up, having a chat, reading the paper and then deciding what they were going to do with it. Instead they suddenly found themselves with half of Holland charging towards them. The South Americans were run over by the Dutch in 1974, and went back over the Atlantic to lick their wounds and think again.
    Brazil was confused. It tried to imitate the Dutch in '78, turned the clock back to more traditional times in '82 and '86, and copied Italy in '90. None of it worked. Then in '94 Brazil came up with the formula which has served it so well in recent years.
    Obsessed with the physical strength of the northern Europeans, Brazil worked at its physical preparation until it led the world in this area. Its players became taller, stronger, more athletic, built for explosion. It was reflected in the style of play.
    Within the traditional 4-4-2 system, Brazil switched its emphasis. Intricate midfield passers were out. Instead, the men in central midfield held the fort while the fullbacks powered forward to link up with the exceptional individual talent that Brazil can always count on up front.
    Current coach Dunga was a product of the formula, as the captain and one of the central midfielders when Brazil ended its long wait by coming out on top in USA '94. He has given the system a tweak, changing the midfield from a "two and two" to a diamond. It has given him more attacking presence in the opponent's penalty area.
    It has also cost him the services of captain Gilberto Silva in the final -- more exposed, the Arsenal giant picked up two yellow cards and is suspended. But it has not fundamentally changed the characteristics of a side that, as the semifinal against Uruguay made clear, threatens most from quick breaks and set pieces.
    Brazil may have turned its back on its great midfield passing tradition of Zico and Didi, Clodoaldo and Gérson, Falcão and Cerezo. Meanwhile, Argentina has gone in the other direction, further strengthening its own heritage of midfield interplay.
    Argentina came away from the '74 World Cup after losing 4-0 to Holland with the good fortune to appoint Cesar Luis Menotti as its coach. The chain-smoking soccer philosopher can be considered the father of the current Argentina side.
    As well as searching the provinces for players to ensure that the team represented the country and not just Buenos Aires, Menotti also equipped the side with a model of play. Traditional passing soccer could still beat the Europeans, he argued, as long as they upped the tempo at the right times. He was rewarded with victory in the '78 World Cup. Admittedly, it may not have happened without homefield advantage. But the fact is that ever since, win or lose, Argentina has had a place at world soccer's top table.
    The current team bears the stamp of Menotti. Coach Basile played under Menotti at Huracán, and was part of the coaching staff, scouting future opponents, during the '78 campaign. Basile constantly asserts that winning is not enough. He wants his team to win in style, faithful to its tradition, making him proud of the way it happened.
    This is Menotti-speak, and it could not come out of the mouth of a contemporary Brazilian coach. Contrary to the widely held perception, winning is everything in Brazil, and no coach would survive for five minutes if he went around spouting such philosophical considerations.
    Below the surface in Brazil there may be a hankering for more romantic days. But the current reality is that results justify the means, and in recent times the results -- with the World Cup wins of '94 and '02, and Copa América triumphs of '97, '99 and '04 -- have been good.
    For that reason, Argentina has the edge on Sunday. Winners are usually imitated, and a victory for an old-fashioned passing side can only be good for the game in an age when soccer is dominated by the quest for ever greater athleticism.
    But I also believe that, in the long term, losing here will be good for Brazil. Coming hard on the heels of the disastrous Under-20 World Cup campaign, it could well indicate that the current formula has run its course.
    Defeat is always an opportunity for a rethink, and if losing on Sunday pushes Brazil towards rediscovering its glorious tradition of midfield maestros, it will be a price worth paying.
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    Post by Formerly known as sheva7 Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:11 pm

    supermadrid wrote:
    Defeat is always an opportunity for a rethink, and if losing on Sunday pushes Brazil towards rediscovering its glorious tradition of midfield maestros, it will be a price worth paying.

    ok

    Vamos Argentina!

    Just hope Dunga gets sacked! But he won't be sacked unless Argentina score 4 or 5 goals. So I don't care at all if today they humilliate us.
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    Post by TM Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:16 pm

    sheva7 wrote:
    supermadrid wrote:
    Defeat is always an opportunity for a rethink, and if losing on Sunday pushes Brazil towards rediscovering its glorious tradition of midfield maestros, it will be a price worth paying.

    ok

    Vamos Argentina!

    Just hope Dunga gets sacked! But he won't be sacked unless Argentina score 4 or 5 goals. So I don't care at all if today they humilliate us.

    Shocked
    I would laugh if Brazil brushed aside the argies tonight and playing great football.

    Highly unlike, but never the less.
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    Post by Super Progress Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:18 pm

    im going for brazil since i cant stand all the hype that argentina is getting. also i think dunga would get fired even if the lost 3-0 so im not sure what they would get out of losing.
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    Post by Machiavel Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:19 pm

    Who is likely to succeed Dunga ?
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    Post by TM Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:20 pm

    Luxemburgo! lol!

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