Brazil Vs Argentina official match thread

2nd string brazil > 1st string all-star argentina

Alves is much better than Miguel going forward. He had 11 assists and 3 goals last season, which is impressive for a RB.

Yea 11 assists is impressive. Even for a winger. Though I'd much prefer Miguel in my side.

My perception on Alvez won't change until I see him have a good game. And if he was to go the EPL, I think he'd flop, whereas Miguel would shine.

Dunga Beats Basile in a game of tactics, just goes to show that what i've been saying his true, argentian are not a team and are just relying on the genius of roman and messi to win him games

Messiah wrote:Dunga Beats Basile in a game of tactics, just goes to show that what i've been saying his true, argentian are not a team and are just relying on the genius of roman and messi to win him games

me and Kas were trying to say it when all the others were hyping argentina. they are not all that. they are just england under SGE but with different players. meaning that Basile is just putting some of his best players together and hoping it works. the reason that it has worked imo is that mascherano has delivered the balance needed but it didnt change the fact that there is no team play. argentinas best game in his comp was when they used aimar/gago to create and tevez/palacio upfront. everyone had a better understanding and there was free flowing football.

Actually, it was Blut who was saying the same as you, not me, I don't think.

kas wrote:Actually, it was Blut who was saying the same as you, not me, I don't think.

oh ok well sorry for you

True, but who cares, you were probably just euphoric about Messi, how good your (=Barcelona) player has become, so it's understandable.

If there is one player I really envy you guys for, it's him.

supermadrid wrote:

Messiah wrote:Dunga Beats Basile in a game of tactics, just goes to show that what i've been saying his true, argentian are not a team and are just relying on the genius of roman and messi to win him games

me and Kas were trying to say it when all the others were hyping argentina. they are not all that. they are just england under SGE but with different players. meaning that Basile is just putting some of his best players together and hoping it works.

I said that aswell...argie sven

borocooper wrote:

supermadrid wrote:

Messiah wrote:Dunga Beats Basile in a game of tactics, just goes to show that what i've been saying his true, argentian are not a team and are just relying on the genius of roman and messi to win him games

me and Kas were trying to say it when all the others were hyping argentina. they are not all that. they are just england under SGE but with different players. meaning that Basile is just putting some of his best players together and hoping it works.

I said that aswell...argie sven

to be honest this time im not sure i wanted to be right. as the Tim vickery article said a defeat might have forced brazil to look inwards and change back to more offensive ways. allthough i hope argentina learns something from this aswell.

Yeah, the lesson is: get a better manager for a change. Pekerman also screwed them.

I raise my hand up and say that I thought Argentina would be winners easy but tactically outclassed by Dunga , does that make any kind of statement about the ability of Basile, ok tactics are not the strong part of SA football(comparing to Europeans) but by Dunga who makes his team play football like Jose does with Chelsea , all the talent at his disposal and still cant play attacking football(not saying beautiful football because everyone has his own conception about the style of football).
Yes Brazil beat Argies and did it 3-0 but does that mean Brazil are world beaters again , does that regain the lost touch of Samba football does that mean when World cup starts in 2010 every god damn person in the world prays please dont let it be no Brazil in our group or any stage of that competition , well I dont think so and if Brazil continue to play this way i dont think the fear factor is going to remain ,yeah they can win but can they humiliate you (which is a big factor) , I dont think Dunga is the right person for this job , we assume Brazil to be a brand a philosphy of playing football (when at times it can self kill) but mostly it wins not the games but the hearts of millions watching , I m sorry but I am very dissapointed with Brazil in the tournament (yeah they are without their 2 best players).

COTR wrote:

The Hitman™ wrote:

Alves is better off as a winger like Mancini - people don't realise that he can get away with bombing forward for Sevilla, because they play with virtually 3 CB's, and Poulsen moves onto the right to cover for him. I'm another one who thinks he's been severely overhyped over the past 18 months.
.

why do you write this as if it is a negative

alves bombing forward from right back and teaming up with the winger is one of the key reasons behind sevilla's success

it's not exactly hard for a manager to tell the defensive midfield to cover the forward runs. nearly all teams operate systems that cover space when it is opened up

alves is a dream right back IMO and the fact he can also double as a winger merely demonstrates how good he is

I want to point out the point of DM covering for the fullback , a DM is a speciallist and knows how to break attacks etc etc but against a tricky winger one on one is he that good , is he as good as a proper defender I dont think so and most DM are usually not that pacy guys which a pacy winger can exploit.

the argies need a german coach

deutsche tugenden and argies football flair would be untackable

Dark Savante wrote:I raise my hand up and say that I thought Argentina would be winners easy but tactically outclassed by Dunga , does that make any kind of statement about the ability of Basile, ok tactics are not the strong part of SA football(comparing to Europeans) but by Dunga who makes his team play football like Jose does with Chelsea , all the talent at his disposal and still cant play attacking football(not saying beautiful football because everyone has his own conception about the style of football).
Yes Brazil beat Argies and did it 3-0 but does that mean Brazil are world beaters again , does that regain the lost touch of Samba football does that mean when World cup starts in 2010 every god damn person in the world prays please dont let it be no Brazil in our group or any stage of that competition , well I dont think so and if Brazil continue to play this way i dont think the fear factor is going to remain ,yeah they can win but can they humiliate you (which is a big factor) , I dont think Dunga is the right person for this job , we assume Brazil to be a brand a philosphy of playing football (when at times it can self kill) but mostly it wins not the games but the hearts of millions watching , I m sorry but I am very dissapointed with Brazil in the tournament (yeah they are without their 2 best players).

I totally agree with you, I think in the long run Brazil winning was the worst thing that can happen for them and neutrals.

Were now for Argentina? Do they continue playing their free flowing beautiful football or will they betray their ideals like their Brazilian neighbours and adopt the more European negative approach.

Football was the loser last night as their is a high chance that we will see pragmatic football from the south American heavy weights at the 2010 World Cup.

for christ sake, people are saying this same thing since 1982. when will they stop?

forget samba, it's a myth. brazil is a winning machine.

Bon voyage Rossi wrote:

Dark Savante wrote:I raise my hand up and say that I thought Argentina would be winners easy but tactically outclassed by Dunga , does that make any kind of statement about the ability of Basile, ok tactics are not the strong part of SA football(comparing to Europeans) but by Dunga who makes his team play football like Jose does with Chelsea , all the talent at his disposal and still cant play attacking football(not saying beautiful football because everyone has his own conception about the style of football).
Yes Brazil beat Argies and did it 3-0 but does that mean Brazil are world beaters again , does that regain the lost touch of Samba football does that mean when World cup starts in 2010 every god damn person in the world prays please dont let it be no Brazil in our group or any stage of that competition , well I dont think so and if Brazil continue to play this way i dont think the fear factor is going to remain ,yeah they can win but can they humiliate you (which is a big factor) , I dont think Dunga is the right person for this job , we assume Brazil to be a brand a philosphy of playing football (when at times it can self kill) but mostly it wins not the games but the hearts of millions watching , I m sorry but I am very dissapointed with Brazil in the tournament (yeah they are without their 2 best players).

I totally agree with you, I think in the long run Brazil winning was the worst thing that can happen for them and neutrals.

Were now for Argentina? Do they continue playing their free flowing beautiful football or will they betray their ideals like their Brazilian neighbours and adopt the more European negative approach.

Football was the loser last night as their is a high chance that we will see pragmatic football from the south American heavy weights at the 2010 World Cup.

I remember watching Cambiasso at Real Madrid and thinking he's a decent player but nothing special. Then he moves to Seria A and by all accounts his form rockets (I've yet to see this as the coverage of Seria A in England is non-existent at the moment).

However judging on these games, I have to ask what all the fuss is about? or is he just playing out of position?

Parks lives wrote:I remember watching Cambiasso at Real Madrid and thinking he's a decent player but nothing special. Then he moves to Seria A and by all accounts his form rockets (I've yet to see this as the coverage of Seria A in England is non-existent at the moment).

However judging on these games, I have to ask what all the fuss is about? or is he just playing out of position?

He was a good Utility player at Madid - but never got a regular eun due to Makelele/Los Galacticos policy.

He's been great at Inter ever since. Rememeber all the hype over Sulley Muntari?

Cambiasso is the rich man's Muntari.

I'm not going to label him a bad player because like I said I've not seen many of his Inter performances.

However he's been very average in this tournament imo. Is he being played out of position or not?

What position has Cambiasso been playing in?

He's a DM or a CM in a 5 man midfield - anything else and I'd imagine he'd get found out.

Hasn't impressed me in the CL either parky - he clearly benefits from playing average teams with average players in a mickey mouse league and has built a reputation on being a tiny bit better than the other dross - a bit like Ryan Taylor at Stockport last year in league 2

COTR wrote:

Torrente wrote:When it comes to Argentina - Brasil, I will always bet for Brasil. Even in moments like these, where all the odds seem to be stacked up against them, Brasil generally comes on top when they play Argentina.

In recent memory people will remember the 3-0, but a few years back Brasil also spanked Argentina 4-1 in the Confederations Cup final. They also beat Argentina in the Copa final last time with their under-23 team. I know they were outplayed for large parts of the game, but that was the least one would expect.

Brasil will go out for blood today. Even if Argentinians hate Brasilians more than Brasilians hate Argentinians, the Samba boys will be fired up enough to snatch it away. Even Vagner Love could have a good game.

There's nothing more pleasing to the Brasilians than beating Argentina or watching Argentina fail in something. The Brasilians know how much damage a win tonight will cause Argentina. Without their 2 biggest stars, an awful coach, and Vagner Love leading the attack, a win would be the equivalent of bitch-slapping them back to Buenos Aires.

Torrente the wise sage of the board it seems

Cheers, man.

I also never bought into the whole Argentina hype. It's the same thing every time. "This team is the one", "This team will win the world cup", "This is the best team in the world", etc.

It reminds me a bit of Spain. Of course, football wise Argentina is miles ahead of Spain. I'm not debating that. But with every new team the hype starts about "This will be the tournament", etc. I don't buy into that either.

Once again, Brasil showed that they are a superior footballing nation to Argentina. Their players raise their level when it counts. It does nothing to play pretty in the group stages and then struggle when it matters. Brasil grow with the tournament like champions are meant to do.

Where were Messi (a.k.a. "I lose the ball every time I touch it"), Riquelme, Tevez, Veron, etc. last night? Nowhere to be found I'm afraid.

Parks lives wrote:I'm not going to label him a bad player because like I said I've not seen many of his Inter performances.

However he's been very average in this tournament imo. Is he being played out of position or not?

he is, he plays out in the left. he hasent been great. He is quality when played in position though.

Torrente wrote:

Where were Messi (a.k.a. "I lose the ball every time I touch it"), Riquelme, Tevez, Veron, etc. last night? Nowhere to be found I'm afraid.

With Robinho.

Bon voyage Rossi wrote:

Dark Savante wrote:I raise my hand up and say that I thought Argentina would be winners easy but tactically outclassed by Dunga , does that make any kind of statement about the ability of Basile, ok tactics are not the strong part of SA football(comparing to Europeans) but by Dunga who makes his team play football like Jose does with Chelsea , all the talent at his disposal and still cant play attacking football(not saying beautiful football because everyone has his own conception about the style of football).
Yes Brazil beat Argies and did it 3-0 but does that mean Brazil are world beaters again , does that regain the lost touch of Samba football does that mean when World cup starts in 2010 every god damn person in the world prays please dont let it be no Brazil in our group or any stage of that competition , well I dont think so and if Brazil continue to play this way i dont think the fear factor is going to remain ,yeah they can win but can they humiliate you (which is a big factor) , I dont think Dunga is the right person for this job , we assume Brazil to be a brand a philosphy of playing football (when at times it can self kill) but mostly it wins not the games but the hearts of millions watching , I m sorry but I am very dissapointed with Brazil in the tournament (yeah they are without their 2 best players).

I totally agree with you, I think in the long run Brazil winning was the worst thing that can happen for them and neutrals.



Were now for Argentina? Do they continue playing their free flowing beautiful football or will they betray their ideals like their Brazilian neighbours and adopt the more European negative approach.



Football was the loser last night as their is a high chance that we will see pragmatic football from the south American heavy weights at the 2010 World Cup.

How did Argentina play free-flowing beautiful football last night? They barely created any chances at all. There seems to be some kind of myth that Argentina play the most beautiful football in every tournament. I think that the real test of who plays the beautiful football is how they play against the big teams.

In the world cup, Argentina played pretty against Serbia, who were absolutely awful the whole tournament. But then they had to climb a mountain to beat Mexico and rarely created chances against Germany in the QFs. In 2002, for all their pretty football they still went out in the first round.

And now in the Copa, they struggled to create chances against Brasil, who may have defended well, but they're hardly Italy.

Don't get me wrong, I love watching Argentina play most of the time. But we shouldn't go as far as saying that them losing is a loss for football. Argentina has to learn to raise their level when it counts, because in the last 15 years or so they simply haven't managed to do this.

Torrente wrote:




Cheers, man.

I also never bought into the whole Argentina hype. It's the same thing every time. "This team is the one", "This team will win the world cup", "This is the best team in the world", etc.

It reminds me a bit of Spain. Of course, football wise Argentina is miles ahead of Spain. I'm not debating that. But with every new team the hype starts about "This will be the tournament", etc. I don't buy into that either.

Once again, Brasil showed that they are a superior footballing nation to Argentina. Their players raise their level when it counts. It does nothing to play pretty in the group stages and then struggle when it matters. Brasil grow with the tournament like champions are meant to do.

Where were Messi (a.k.a. "I lose the ball every time I touch it"), Riquelme, Tevez, Veron, etc. last night? Nowhere to be found I'm afraid.

true

the one thing about argentina is whenever they lose a game they appear to be totally shapeless and without any sort of tactical instructions. this is why im inclined to put their failures more down to poor coaching

they certainly had the players to win easily yesterday but what shape where they supposed to be playing

tevez as a main striker ???

messi operating both wings with nobody else giving width ??

what was the purpose of cambiasso and veron and why on earth was veron even anywhere near the team ??

is there nobody better than heinze for left back ??

as somebody said earlier they have been successful because of messi and riquleme's individual brilliance in this competition with maschaerano doing a great job cleaning up any opposition attacks

but as team they are very rarely totally convincing for spectators which is why the 'are argentina the new brazil thread' was pretty laughable

Parks lives wrote:

Torrente wrote:

Where were Messi (a.k.a. "I lose the ball every time I touch it"), Riquelme, Tevez, Veron, etc. last night? Nowhere to be found I'm afraid.

With Robinho.

Robinho didn't have a great game, but he did more than Tevez and Messi combined. He did link up the defense and attack quite well and barely lost the ball when he got it. Also, on several occasions when he started a good move he was hacked down by Ayala. He played too deep for my liking though. I think he should have stayed in attack more than he did.

But in the end, top scored of the Copa

@COTR


Well, it was obvious that Basile would use the same system that worked against Mexico. It would have been foolish not to. But like his predecessors, he couldn't figure out how to outsmart his counterpart and make the necessary adjustments to win.

And while coaching certainly had a lot to do with Brasil winning last night, I think it goes beyond that. Basically all of Argentina's big stars were mediocre to bad last night and you can't blaim Basile for that. Messi was trying to dribble everyone in the field, Tevez was running around aimlessly, Riquelme kept lobbing balls into the box even though the Brasilian defenders were a head taller than the Argentinians, Veron looked like a kid lost in a big forest or something like that, etc.

People said that a loss would be good for Brasil because it could lead to Dunga's firing and so on. But I think this loss could work very well for Argentina. They tend to be quite arrogant and this could be another wake up call that they aren't as good as they think they are. I remember a similar case in the WC2002. Since Brasil was having trouble to qualify, the Argentinians kept making fun of them and they hyped themselves as clear favorites for it. In the end they went out in the first round while Brasil won it.

Tweedle wrote:What position has Cambiasso been playing in?

He's a DM or a CM in a 5 man midfield - anything else and I'd imagine he'd get found out.

Hasn't impressed me in the CL either parky - he clearly benefits from playing average teams with average players in a mickey mouse league and has built a reputation on being a tiny bit better than the other dross - a bit like Ryan Taylor at Stockport last year in league 2

Waits for Bluenine

Torrente wrote:

Bon voyage Rossi wrote:

Dark Savante wrote:I raise my hand up and say that I thought Argentina would be winners easy but tactically outclassed by Dunga , does that make any kind of statement about the ability of Basile, ok tactics are not the strong part of SA football(comparing to Europeans) but by Dunga who makes his team play football like Jose does with Chelsea , all the talent at his disposal and still cant play attacking football(not saying beautiful football because everyone has his own conception about the style of football).
Yes Brazil beat Argies and did it 3-0 but does that mean Brazil are world beaters again , does that regain the lost touch of Samba football does that mean when World cup starts in 2010 every god damn person in the world prays please dont let it be no Brazil in our group or any stage of that competition , well I dont think so and if Brazil continue to play this way i dont think the fear factor is going to remain ,yeah they can win but can they humiliate you (which is a big factor) , I dont think Dunga is the right person for this job , we assume Brazil to be a brand a philosphy of playing football (when at times it can self kill) but mostly it wins not the games but the hearts of millions watching , I m sorry but I am very dissapointed with Brazil in the tournament (yeah they are without their 2 best players).

I totally agree with you, I think in the long run Brazil winning was the worst thing that can happen for them and neutrals.



Were now for Argentina? Do they continue playing their free flowing beautiful football or will they betray their ideals like their Brazilian neighbours and adopt the more European negative approach.



Football was the loser last night as their is a high chance that we will see pragmatic football from the south American heavy weights at the 2010 World Cup.

How did Argentina play free-flowing beautiful football last night? They barely created any chances at all. There seems to be some kind of myth that Argentina play the most beautiful football in every tournament. I think that the real test of who plays the beautiful football is how they play against the big teams.

In the world cup, Argentina played pretty against Serbia, who were absolutely awful the whole tournament. But then they had to climb a mountain to beat Mexico and rarely created chances against Germany in the QFs. In 2002, for all their pretty football they still went out in the first round.

And now in the Copa, they struggled to create chances against Brasil, who may have defended well, but they're hardly Italy.

Don't get me wrong, I love watching Argentina play most of the time. But we shouldn't go as far as saying that them losing is a loss for football. Argentina has to learn to raise their level when it counts, because in the last 15 years or so they simply haven't managed to do this.

So you didn't watch the 2006 world cup then? They were far better than Germany until Riquelme went off (Germany were heading straight out of the WC) and the match against Mexico was great to watch.

The thing with Brazil is, and it's been like this in almost every tournament they've been successful in, that they gain momentum during the tournament, usually with a bad / disappointing start and improvement with time, like a typical "tournament team" (Germany and Italy are similar). If you want to knock out Brazil, you have to do it early. The earlier, the easier and more likely.