Brazil Vs Argentina official match thread

and on another note


I really really hope rafa was watching heinze closely tonight and wondering what on earth he was doing even considering buying this clumsy fool

I'd still like to see Ronaldo, Lucio (I know he was injured), Adriano, Kaka & Ronaldinho back in the sqaud. Even as someone who doesn't support Brasil, I'd cry if we have to put up with Love, Elano & Baptisa for the forseeable future.

Calidad wrote:

sheva7 wrote:Where are Alves critics?

I can descriube the argentinian squad and its players in one word.

Superbia

http://www.ole.com.ar/diario/2007/07/15/tapapapel.html

I'm here. And I've just been criticising him.

Maicon is far superior. Alvez had a nice finish for the goal. He done little else of note. I noticed he had a great oppotunity to put in Baptista or Robinho, but as usual nothing came of it and the cross was blocked (when he had plenty of time to pick out a pass) - he is a pace merchant who spends half his time fouling and the other half chasing back because he's lost possession.

Maicon, I've been very impressed with. Had an indifferent start to the tournament, but he's been impressive during the last two games.

Offensively Alves is much better than any full back in the world and he is ok defensively. Dani Alves decided the match simple as that. He wasn't the MoM because Juan, Alex and Josué were simply outstanding. Maicon is very good, but Alves is even better.

Calidad wrote:I agree that Juan is very underrated. In general Brasilian defenders are underrated.

as much as our forwards are sometimes overated.

Calidad wrote:Today showed how solid they are, when they have a lot of protection.

not only today. we have been producing excelent defenders since the great pair Aldair-Márcio Santos. but they are underated for being Brazilian. I'd also include our DMs.

if Josué was a forward and played as well as he plays as a DM, he would be in a top Euro club by now.

COTR wrote:and on another note


I really really hope rafa was watching heinze closely tonight and wondering what on earth he was doing even considering buying this clumsy fool

I hear ya COTR!

I'm just glad Brasil spanked Argentina. Them Argies are just like them Germans, bullies. However, when they play against someone eye to eye they fold, just like Germany against Italia.

COTR wrote:and on another note


I really really hope rafa was watching heinze closely tonight and wondering what on earth he was doing even considering buying this clumsy fool

Techinically Heize is awful. He is ok defensively, but he definitely isn't good enough for Argentina, Liverpool or Utd.

Yea that's what I was trying to say todo. Because of Brasils expansive nature the defenders often lack protection and they're inclined to look a little 'ragged' at times, but it is a testament to the quality of the likes of Aldair, Lucio, Juan etc that Brasils defensive record has always been amongst the best in the world. English commentators often naively criticise Brasil's defence/defenders despite their great record.

But with Brasil being more defensive their statistics have been backed up by performances where other teams have created very little. This is the way most top teams play in the world (Italy, England, Germany, France etc) and it is these nations that generally get the praise for their defence/defenders - but if they were to play in a system that has been used by Brasil they would look incredibly ordinary.

I thought Josue was quite good, but he got away with too many fouls IMO.

DD wrote:Brazil always do well when they're the underdogs (bare with me: as in not the favourites) or have the hunger.
Its when they stroll on the pitch thinking they already have things wrapped up is when they do badly and dissapoint. Usually when they've been playing really well or have just won a cup previously.

I agree... very good player, but the people who are calling him the best RB in the world are going overboard a bit... he needs to improve defensively to become that, but no doubt that he is amazing going forward..

Like I predicted in the "Who succeeds cafu for Brazil" thread, Alves will become a winger (as we saw today), just like Mancini before him... Alves has all the characteristics to become a brilliant winger!!! Maicon is the successor to Cafu!! Imagine taling over from Cafu for Brazil and taking over from Zanetti for Argentina.... he has some big shoes to fill!!

Bon voyage Rossi wrote:

Calidad wrote:

sheva7 wrote:Where are Alves critics?

I can descriube the argentinian squad and its players in one word.

Superbia

http://www.ole.com.ar/diario/2007/07/15/tapapapel.html

I'm here. And I've just been criticising him.

Maicon is far superior. Alvez had a nice finish for the goal. He done little else of note. I noticed he had a great oppotunity to put in Baptista or Robinho, but as usual nothing came of it and the cross was blocked (when he had plenty of time to pick out a pass) - he is a pace merchant who spends half his time fouling and the other half chasing back because he's lost possession.

Maicon, I've been very impressed with. Had an indifferent start to the tournament, but he's been impressive during the last two games.

Alves took his goal well and put in a good cross that lead to the own goal, but I still think he isnt as good as most make out.

I don't think Maicon will ever come close to Cafu.

I think Alvez's offensive qualities are overrated, and I've never understood the hype. I'm clearly in a minority however, so I will shutup and stop rambling on.

bluenine wrote:I agree... very good player, but the people who are calling him the best RB in the world are going overboard a bit... he needs to improve defensively to become that, but no doubt that he is amazing going forward..

Like I predicted in the "Who succeeds cafu for Brazil" thread, Alves will become a winger (as we saw today), just like Mancini before him... Alves has all the characteristics to become a brilliant winger!!! Maicon is the successor to Cafu!! Imagine taling over from Cafu for Brazil and taking over from Zanetti for Argentina.... he has some big shoes to fill!!

Bon voyage Rossi wrote:

Calidad wrote:

sheva7 wrote:Where are Alves critics?

I can descriube the argentinian squad and its players in one word.

Superbia

http://www.ole.com.ar/diario/2007/07/15/tapapapel.html

I'm here. And I've just been criticising him.

Maicon is far superior. Alvez had a nice finish for the goal. He done little else of note. I noticed he had a great oppotunity to put in Baptista or Robinho, but as usual nothing came of it and the cross was blocked (when he had plenty of time to pick out a pass) - he is a pace merchant who spends half his time fouling and the other half chasing back because he's lost possession.

Maicon, I've been very impressed with. Had an indifferent start to the tournament, but he's been impressive during the last two games.

Alves took his goal well and put in a good cross that lead to the own goal, but I still think he isnt as good as most make out.

Alves is not going anywhere. He is more versatile than Maicon. That's it!

I told you it's 50-50, and definitely not clear that Argentina will win this 'for sure'. Congrats to our Brazilian friends!

Diego should have played, because he is the ideal player to head the "3 DM system" (diamond 4-4-2), Baptista's role today. He played a bad half out of position (first Brazil match, as second striker), and never got a real chance again. In Dunga's current system, he is the ideal player for the position behind the strikers, exactly the position he plays here in Bremen and is most effective in.

Baptista scored again and justified his starting place, fair enough, but Diego is the future, especially in the diamond midfield, and even Dunga can't prevent that.

I didn't say that Argentina would win for sure. I said that they were the favorities. Their squad is more talented than ours.

Calidad wrote:Yea that's what I was trying to say todo. Because of Brasils expansive nature the defenders often lack protection and they're inclined to look a little 'ragged' at times, but it is a testament to the quality of the likes of Aldair, Lucio, Juan etc that Brasils defensive record has always been amongst the best in the world. English commentators often naively criticise Brasil's defence/defenders despite their great record.

But with Brasil being more defensive their statistics have been backed up by performances where other teams have created very little. This is the way most top teams play in the world (Italy, England, Germany, France etc) and it is these nations that generally get the praise for their defence/defenders - but if they were to play in a system that has been used by Brasil they would look incredibly ordinary.

I thought Josue was quite good, but he got away with too many fouls IMO.

I agree... but from those European Nations, players like Puyol, R.Ferdinand, King, Woodgate, Nesta, Metzelder, & Gallas could all play in the traditional Brazilian expansive teams , and do as good a job as the current Brazilian lot in defence.

Maicon is very, very good - he'll never be Cafu or Javier Zanetti, but he's a worthy successor to either.

Alves is better off as a winger like Mancini - people don't realise that he can get away with bombing forward for Sevilla, because they play with virtually 3 CB's, and Poulsen moves onto the right to cover for him. I'm another one who thinks he's been severely overhyped over the past 18 months.

Argentina bottled it on the big occaasion against Brazil yet again.

The Hitman™ wrote:

Alves is better off as a winger like Mancini - people don't realise that he can get away with bombing forward for Sevilla, because they play with virtually 3 CB's, and Poulsen moves onto the right to cover for him. I'm another one who thinks he's been severely overhyped over the past 18 months.
.

why do you write this as if it is a negative

alves bombing forward from right back and teaming up with the winger is one of the key reasons behind sevilla's success

it's not exactly hard for a manager to tell the defensive midfield to cover the forward runs. nearly all teams operate systems that cover space when it is opened up

alves is a dream right back IMO and the fact he can also double as a winger merely demonstrates how good he is

COTR wrote:

The Hitman wrote:

Alves is better off as a winger like Mancini - people don't realise that he can get away with bombing forward for Sevilla, because they play with virtually 3 CB's, and Poulsen moves onto the right to cover for him. I'm another one who thinks he's been severely overhyped over the past 18 months.
.

why do you write this as if it is a negative

alves bombing forward from right back and teaming up with the winger is one of the key reasons behind sevilla's success

it's not exactly hard for a manager to tell the defensive midfield to cover the forward runs. nearly all teams operate systems that cover space when it is opened up

alves is a dream right back IMO and the fact he can also double as a winger merely demonstrates how good he is

Great points, COTR, but I'm looking at it from the prospective of him coming up against great Lefties, like Robben, Van Persie or Malouda, who could have a field day against him - or the space he leaves behind...

He's also not half the *defender* Cafu was.

WTF IS WRONG WITH ARGENTINA????????????????? This is suppose to be one of the best Argentine’s team in years, and THAT was one of the worst Brazilian’s team in decades, and they got TRASHED?


Bunch of f#cking chokers !!!!!!!!!!!

If I hear one more time any argentine player saying how they are the best team in the world or any of their fans, I will fly personally to Buenos Aires to kick their ass.
Here is a detail loser; you are supposed to lift the trophy by the end of the tournament, if you really are the best.

Now Dunga is safe.

Attacking fullbacks are necessary for the diamond 4-4-2 system to work, because it's them who provide width. That's why Alves "bombing forward" is exactly what is expected from him, and he did his job very well tonight.

Goddamnit...just came home to watch this game...was it already played!!! Mofo's!

sheva7 wrote:I didn't say that Argentina would win for sure. I said that they were the favorities. Their squad is more talented than ours.

I didn't mean you in particular sheva, but the board in general. The vast majority believed that Argentina would clearly win this match.

Some even went so far to give them some kind of invincibility status ("in this form, they are unstopable", something like that). I knew they weren't, and I said it right after their impressive win against Mexico, as can be read in the Copa thread.

I agree... cafu in his heyday was amazing for so many years... And while Maicon might reach that level, I don't think he will be able to sustain it for half as long as Cafu did...

Thats what makes players like Cafu, Zanetti, Maldini, etc so special. They were legendary for over 10-20 years!!!

Calidad wrote:I don't think Maicon will ever come close to Cafu.

I think Alvez's offensive qualities are overrated, and I've never understood the hype. I'm clearly in a minority however, so I will shutup and stop rambling on.

blutgraetsche wrote:

sheva7 wrote:I didn't say that Argentina would win for sure. I said that they were the favorities. Their squad is more talented than ours.

I didn't mean you in particular sheva, but the board in general. The vast majority believed that Argentina would clearly win this match.

Some even went so far to give them some kind of invincibility status ("in this form, they are unstopable", something like that). I knew they weren't, and I said it right after their impressive win against Mexico, as can be read in the Copa thread.

Guilty as charged. Though I never expected Brazil to be as solid as they were today...their defending has not been very good in this tournament, but it was excellent today.

Alves wasn't playing fullback today, Blut.

blutgraetsche wrote:Attacking fullbacks are necessary for the diamond 4-4-2 system to work, because it's them who provide width. That's why Alves "bombing forward" is exactly what is expected from him, and he did his job very well tonight.

Why is everyone climbing on Argentina?? They were easily the best team in this championship, and gave us 5 very good performances... it is kinda expected that they cannot keep performing at that level, a blip had to happen sometime!!

They were tactically out-thought today, as simple as that. kudos to Dunga, he has silenced his critics well. And I hope Brazil are not as stupid as Real, they should stick with Dunga for another 2 years!

juligen21 wrote:WTF IS WRONG WITH ARGENTINA????????????????? This is suppose to be one of the best Argentine’s team in years, and THAT was one of the worst Brazilian’s team in decades, and they got TRASHED?


Bunch of f#cking chokers !!!!!!!!!!!

If I hear one more time any argentine player saying how they are the best team in the world or any of their fans, I will fly personally to Buenos Aires to kick their ass.
Here is a detail loser; you are supposed to lift the trophy by the end of the tournament, if you really are the best.

Now Dunga is safe.

kas wrote:
Guilty as charged. Though I never expected Brazil to be as solid as they were today...their defending has not been very good in this tournament, but it was excellent today.

Brazil are always fired up when they play Argentina. They always play at their limit, no matter who plays really. This basically applies to all matches between arch rivals. We had one of the worst German national teams ever in 2004, yet Holland, who had a very good team back then, still could not beat us in the group stages, for example. These matches have their own rules.

And you are not 'guilty' kas, you had every right to be impressed by Argentina in this tournament, because they played some brilliant football. I still think that they were more of a "unit" last year, as explained earlier, but still, some truly impressive performances.

bluenine wrote:Alves wasn't playing fullback today, Blut.

?

If Dunga played the "3 DM system" (-> diamond 4-4-2), where did Alves play then? Attacking fullback, or wing back if you like. Or did I miss something?

Alves played as a DM going forward.

Alves____Mineiro_____Josué

--------Baptista----------

------Love-----Robinho----

blutgraetsche wrote:

bluenine wrote:Alves wasn't playing fullback today, Blut.

?

If Dunga played the "3 DM system" (-> diamond 4-4-2), where did Alves play then? Attacking fullback, or wing back if you like. Or did I miss something?

Alright, forget what I said then.

It's still true that in a dimanond 4-4-2, the fullbacks need to provide width. So if Alves is bombing forward, you can't criticise him for it, on the contrary.

If he was playing on the wing, there is even less reason to criticise him for "bombing forward".

I don't think Alvez is overrated because of his defensive limitations, but more because of the fact his attacking abilities are overstated. Yes he has pace, yes he's tenacious; but I think his end product and distribution is often poor, especially for someone that is given such attacking license. It'd be interesting to see how many assists he got last season.

People rant on about Alvez, what about Miguel? He's twice the player Alvez is. Has far more composure on the ball, is fast, creative, and knows how to defend. Alvez is no better than Cicinho IMO who seems to get slated (somewhat unfairly I think)

Good points TS.